Meet the Mancunian - Talking welcoming refugees and asylum seekers with Liz Hibberd

Meet the Mancunian-5.10-Liz Hibberd transcript

Intro

Welcome to the fifth season of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, social impact stories from Manchester. I'm Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe, your friendly host. It's a privilege and a pleasure for me to interview some of the most inspiring people working in Manchester's social impact sector and feature them on this podcast.

My guests are leaders and worker bees associated as employees, trustees, and volunteers with social enterprises, non-profits, and community groups. They share their life stories and passions with you, dear listener. My aim through this podcast is to inspire you and share a bit of good news.

My guests tackle serious concerns in Manchester but many of these are also universal themes resonating in many parts of the globe. All my guests talk about the power of collaboration and how together we are stronger. They, of course, expand on their pride in Manchester and Mancunians as well.

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If you are a new listener, you can log on to www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to listen to the first four seasons of the podcast, and read more about my podcasting story. If you are a returning listener, welcome back. Thank you for your support.

Welcome to the tenth episode of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, season five.

Passionate about supporting refugees and asylum seekers? We hear from Liz Hibberd, Strategic and Partnership Lead, Manchester City of Sanctuary in this episode.

Episode 10

[00:00:00] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm delighted to introduce my guest, Liz Hibberd, strategic and partnership lead, Manchester City of Sanctuary. Thank you so much, Liz, for taking the time today.

[00:00:09] Liz Hibberd: Thank you. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you.

[00:00:12] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm looking forward to hearing all the good work you're doing. But first, please tell us about how you found your passion for supporting refugees. I know you've worked in many parts of the world and lived in many parts of the world. Tell us about that, please.

[00:00:26] Liz Hibberd: I mean, I used to be a primary school teacher, which feels like quite a long time ago. And then I started teaching English in different countries around the world. There was always a bit of a theme of education running through the work that I was doing. It sort of changed focus a little bit, went back to study.

I was doing a distance masters in development, and global learning. And while I was doing that distance and part-time, I was able to do a lot more volunteering. So, I spent volunteering in the Cali Jungle. I spent some time in Greece. And more recently, I took a kind of sabbatical and worked with VSO and UNICEF in Ethiopia and sort of throughout that work, even though there was that element of education. And even though all my traveling prior to that in South America, living in in Thailand and Qatar and traveling in between those contracts, I found it really interesting to explore the education element, but also to think more about the welcome and the interactions that I'd had with people and how some people were a bigger welcome than others. And were welcomed and accepted and some really weren’t and were ostracised and depending on certain labels that were given to you, expat, migrant, refugee, asylum seeker, really depended on how people viewed you how willing they were to connect and engage with you.

[00:01:58] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That is very interesting, and you made a very important point about labelling and stereotyping and how we put people into nicely packaged boxes, whereas people are people, aren't they?

So tell us how you got involved with Manchester City of Sanctuary and what does it do?

[00:02:19] Liz Hibberd: I've been sort of involved since about 2017. My partner and I lived overseas for quite a few years, and we had all the different experiences that we had. And when we moved back, we chose Manchester for a range of reasons. I'm from Yorkshire and we didn't really know that many people here, but there was something about the dynamic nature. It’s so exciting and welcoming and there's so much to do here and you can be yourself here.

When I started, I started as a volunteer actually at Manchester City of Sanctuary or MCOS, because it's a mouthful. And then I kind of applied for a job and was really lucky to be offered the part-time position. And so, I was working with other volunteers. I was coordinating the project, coordinating the volunteers, and the manager left, be given of, and lead really. That's how I've been involved. And we're quite a small charity. Really, we're able to do amazing work based on our volunteers really and our partnerships.

But we've been around for about 11 years, and we started very, very grassroots and it was really about welcoming people, seeing people face-to-face as human beings, and walking their journey with them. Not promising to fix anything. Not promising to make changes over promising things, but really just witnessing that journey and recognising someone's humanity.

So now we work with refugees and asylum seekers. We work to promote positive mental health and wellbeing. We do that through connection, through welcome. And really aiming to recognise people's shared humanity and creating spaces where people can come together to have that connection. There's something really powerful about sitting with somebody and them appreciating you and almost peeling back those labels that we talked about earlier.

How easy it is to say, oh, you're a refugee, you're an asylum seeker. You are from Yorkshire, you are this, you are that. It's lazy, it's incorrect. It really reduces people to the smallest thing. Whereas actually everybody's multi-layered, there's nuances.

You know, people are amazing. And if you don't spend time like peeling that back or spending time with somebody, well, they won't feel safe with you. It's hard to build trust and you don't really get to meet somebody one-on-one at their level and at your level.

[00:04:59] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that. And that is so interesting because I think, again, it's about that diverse perspective and embracing the diversity and allowing people to be multifaceted and share their history and their food and their culture with you, so that is really, really interesting.

Tell us a little bit about these refugees and asylum seekers. Is there a particular country that you tend to have more of them come from? Or is it spread all over the world?

[00:05:31] Liz Hibberd: We work with lots and lots of different… Well, usually it's a good thing. Sometimes it's not great, but we're very light touch on a lot of data. We don't really want to grill people. We want to welcome and accept people as they are and as they show up. So, we don't really record too many things, which can be difficult for funding bids and things like that.

We work with a lot of West African people. A lot of people from Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, places like that. We have a big Iranian contingent. We have people from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. We have people from a whole of places. Recently, we've been working with people from Namibia. Just all sorts, a lot from Eritrea as well.

So, depending on the kinds of the issues that are happening in those places, whether you know, war, natural disaster, climate change, people fleeing persecution from political activism, from religious persecution, things like that. It's a real range.

And of course, that has sometimes problems with people being able to interact and from cultural perspectives. It's really fascinating as from like sharing that when we do events that involve food because food always comes up, it's absolutely to share that and be part of that. And that's an excellent way to engage with people, definitely.

[00:06:52] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I believe that as well. I used to run a foodie group with people from around the world in Saudi Arabia,

[00:06:58] Liz Hibberd: Wow.

[00:06:59] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: …and it was so interesting because, we'd start with a food conversation, but then you'd go into marriage customs in different parts of the world, or maybe about health, just very wide ranging. And it's just having that open curiosity and willingness to share, isn't it?

[00:07:15] Liz Hibberd: Yeah.

[00:07:16] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: What challenges have you faced on this journey? Because, you've said you've been around for 11 years, but you are relatively a small charity making a mighty impact through your volunteers. What would you say are the challenges and how have you managed to overcome them?

[00:07:30] Liz Hibberd: Well, I wouldn't say we've particularly overcome them. We try so hard. A real issue is around funding because what we do is quite intangible. It's hard to capture the impact. It's quite difficult to record how powerful a conversation can be when you're having a cup of tea with somebody. And yet that is really the impact.

It's the changing hearts and minds and it sounds a bit naf, but it really is how people change their perspectives and viewpoints based on that interaction. So, challenges are generally being able, because you can get people to fund things like the coffee mornings that we do or the wellbeing activities, but the things that are harder to fund are staff salaries and insurance and office space and things like that. But, you know, touchwood, we seem to find a way and we have been able to do it. I think that is a big challenge.

Another challenge is -it's kind of like public perception really. You know, there's so much in the media and this kind of negative narrative that a lot of the media will engage in. People don't engage critically with it, you know?

And I can, I can totally get that it, if you start trying to unpack a lot of the things that you are hearing and you are reading, it's tiring. People are tired, people are exhausted. There's a lot going on.

So, trying to understand, oh, I wonder what the message that news channel was really trying to say, what was behind that kind of reporting? What did they mean when they said this? It's much easier just to accept it and to be quite passive.

But also then, you are not really engaging with something. You don't have that critical element. You are not really in control almost of your own thoughts. It's kind of unchallenged, uncriticised, unexplored viewpoints of somebody else. And I think that's what we try and do in a really sympathetic and safe way is allow people to have that interaction.

There's a whole theory around the anxious middle that you have. You have people on either side, the far right and the far left, but actually it's the people in the middle, they might feel, sad or sorry about people's situations, but also well, but it's quite bad here. And actually, shouldn't we look after people here and, they're not being really terrible or anything, but it's just that maybe lack of nuance or lack of understanding of actually how things work or how things play out when the government makes certain decisions.

It's about, yes, sitting with somebody and actually understanding or doing that learning really around, well, what does that mean and why does this person look like they might do somebody harm? Or is it true that somebody takes somebody else's job or somebody else's housing?

Well, no, because people aren't allowed to work straight away and, you know, people are housed privately. It's kind of exploring and almost teaching yourself what's actually accurate.

And I mean that with no disrespect really, because, a lot of people have just got a lot going on and it's really hard to care about everything.You have to try and almost make it easy for people to engage and really make it a way that they can understand and be drawn into, I think, from that human level.

[00:11:05] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: How do you do that? Because, Liz, when you talked about, its public perception and its attitude, and it's also getting people to care when there are many other things on their mind. What are the things that Manchester City of Sanctuary tries to do?

[00:11:21] Liz Hibberd: I guess we try and make it easy for people to connect, to have that experience. We try and find opportunities for people to help. You know, there's a lot of people that see things on the news and they're really eager to do something, and that's really powerful and you don't want to turn people away.

But it's around making it useful in a sense and meaningful on both sides. We do try that, but we also try through a lot of the work we do. We've got two kind of projects that really sort of address this.

One of them is the volunteer placement project. It's a bit of a mouthful. Again, we're not very good with titles, we've been able find volunteer placements for a lot of the asylum seekers that we work with. And we've worked with some fantastic organisations are kind of hosting people.

And so, when people are volunteering at those places, they have a meaningful connection. There's a real sense of purpose on both sides. If somebody's working in a charity shop and they are useful and they have a routine and something to do, it gives the refugee or asylum seeker, that sense of purpose, that meaning when there's a lot of trauma and limbo and chaos. There's that structure. And so that means that, they're giving back, they're engaged, they're connecting with people. So, it's almost challenging people, but in a really soft way.

[00:12:46] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Yeah.

[00:12:47] Liz Hibberd: And there's a national City of Sanctuary that Manchester City of Sanctuary is part of, and we were on these Sanctuary awards. We will present an organisation an award to recognise the work they've done around understanding the refugee experience, if they've removed barriers of access, if they've shared their work and engaged the community.

One brilliant example of that is the Schools of Sanctuary initiative. Schools will learn, embed, and share around this. So, all of their school community, the children, the teachers, the parents, the lunchtime supervisors, the receptionists, and they go on this journey of understanding. And when they're successful, you know, we present the award. it's a really positive recognition of places of sanctuary - schools, universities, museums, art galleries - working towards, really putting into action this idea of people being welcome here.

And so, through those two projects that we work with or we run, we're able to slowly change people's minds, change their hearts and minds again, really and make the city a better place for those who might not have chosen Manchester but have been housed here and accommodated here. And actually often, they want to stay here because they feel part of that community.

[00:14:10] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that. Those are both really nice, and I love the one about the volunteer placement because it's taking the skills of that refugee or that asylum seeker, again, multifaceted. Yes, they're a refugee, but they have those skills because they've acquired them, and they'd like to contribute and then makes them a productive member of the society.

So really, really nice initiatives. And of course, the awards is also a great idea. I like the fact that you're getting schools involved because catch them young. Change minds early because, a lot of our early childhood experiences forms how we are going to interact with the world.If you live multiculturally, you're more likely to be multicultural as you grow older.

Now tell us about the impact you made. I know you said that the impact is something you don't record, and you don't measure, but there might be other things. I let my guests define what they mean by impact. It can be, one person's experience and how you've transformed one person's life.

[00:15:14] Liz Hibberd: Well, we have a massive impact. It's just not in the data form. We can't put it into a pie chart, but oh, there's some fantastic stories. We've worked with some really great partners to do befriending. And we've been able to support one young person to have a friend.

And it has just been, honestly, it sounds really ridiculous, but it's been life changing because this friendship has meant so much to this person and it has just given them this lease of life when people...

Asylum seekers don't get a lot of money. They might get 45 pounds a week to live off. They're not allowed to work. You can't study straight away. So, your mental health is a real risk of deteriorating because even if bus prices have gone down recently, it's still difficult. It's hard to go anywhere without it costing money. And if you don't know where to go, it can be a real barrier.

So, and this is with local Mancunians, so you are matched with somebody who's volunteered again. And so, you know, people might go to the gym, they go to the art gallery, they might go for a coffee. We have somebody who walks the dog around the park and their friend comes with them. And it's just bringing people together.

It's so lovely. And I think it works both ways as well. We have a wonderful volunteer who's in his seventies and he is always putting himself down. He says, like, all I do is make a cup of tea. I make somebody tea at our social events. But actually, it's who doesn't feel better when they've sat down and chatted with their friends, their mom, somebody that they care about whether you've shared your worries or whether you've actually just talked about the football.

We talk about the football all the time. That's the other thing, food and football. And it's just fun, people laugh together. Most people have been in similar situations, certainly once they've arrived here and they're navigating the immigration system. But actually, people are more than their status.

And so that element of fun, that element of joking around, it's just brilliant. And I think that there's loads of little stories like that that people have gone on to volunteer. Somebody was volunteering, they started about a year ago, and now they're like the volunteer supervisor and they train up other volunteers.

And that confidence, the improvement of their English, they've now gone on and volunteered, somewhere else, gone to college. Yeah, like loads of little things like that that are just really lovely.

You might often, we don't always hear these stories because they just go off. Really lovely. Like we lose them sometimes it is sad, but it's because they don't need that support and they've got settled and they're integrated and connected and having a great time, which is brilliant.

[00:18:00] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: ... which is really brilliant. Thank you. That is amazing impact. All three are very powerful. Especially that 70-year-old grandfather stands out for me. He might not have as many people around him regularly, but being useful, being productive, and this is what when I've talked to guests who are that in that age group, they talk about how they always want to be productive.

[00:18:24] Liz Hibberd: Yeah.

[00:18:25] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: And thank you for sharing that. How can interested people reach out to you and learn more? Where can they find your website or social media?

[00:18:34] Liz Hibberd: Brilliant. Yes. So we are Manchester City of Sanctuary. We have a website we have a Facebook and an Instagram and a Twitter actually. And again, our fab volunteers usually run those. That's where you can find out what we're doing, what we're up to. We have a newsletter. It's only quarterly now because I just run out of time to do it every month. There's all of that kind of ways of following what we're doing.

We do always like having volunteers. We have a lot of ad hoc volunteers that can just do, once a month because they've got a life, they've got kids, family, studies, so that's fine as well.

We always need help fundraising, so any kind of donations or people wanting to run the Manchester Marathon or whatever, that would be fantastic. But just maybe thinking about what we're doing and finding out more about our vision and mission and how it works. That would be amazing.

[00:19:26] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that, Liz. And what I do is, I put the website in the show notes so that people can find it easily.

What advice would you have for people looking to start something similar in another part of the world, in another part of the UK? Welcoming refugees, welcoming asylum seekers, helping them integrate into the local community.

[00:19:45] Liz Hibberd: I guess there's a couple of things really. I think one is to not worry so much about it. Like I do quite a bit of training and I did some training this afternoon for an organisation and a lot of times, people are so worried about getting something wrong, using the wrong language, offending people, and it's almost like, well, yeah, that might happen, you know, but actually it's not enough of a reason to not do something. It's going in with that sort of open mind, open to the feedback. You can usually tell if you've upset somebody, and I think it's being open to be like, I'm so sorry, I didn't realise what I've done. Please, I won't do that again. And learning from that, and actually that is a way of, understanding or developing your own understanding and growing your own knowledge.

And actually, oftentimes there's a bit of offending people either way. I'm always asked loads of stuff, you know, how much money do you make? Why haven't you got children? All sorts of things. But it's about being, open and, if you are generally interested about wanting to know about other people and other cultures, you've got to be open a little bit.

I think not really letting things stop you like that, but also like, not being so hard on yourself. You might think that, well, I've only done something small, but actually it's not underestimating the power of that cup of tea or that walk in the park. I think it's reach out and see what people need.

And I think it's recognising that maybe you are not best placed to know what people need. But you might be best placed to facilitate that, because you are from the area or you are local, or you can navigate the systems a bit more easily, but you are not always best placed to speak to other people.

It might be appropriate because of language. You don't want to re-traumatise people or exploit them, but ultimately you can't really know better than somebody else about what they need or want. You can try and help that, but it's that co-production and it's there to work with other people for that.

[00:21:49] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you. All really great tips. Thanks so much for sharing that.

An opportunity now for you to talk about anything I haven't asked you about or anything coming up in the next few months.

[00:22:00] Liz Hibberd: I guess it's really important to flag up refugee week that happens in June. I, think it might start on the 19th. But refugee week is a really important opportunity to share the refugee and asylum seeker story and their experience. It's usually a really good opportunity to connect with lots of events that are happening in the city. We'll be doing a lady's coffee morning that we're going to open anybody that identifies as women so they can join us. You know, we've got tea, cake, coffee, all of that. We'll be doing some other activities in partnership with other organisations and other places in the city. And so that's a really good place to start exploring and understanding more.

[00:22:42] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that. That does sound like something for the calendar. And an opportunity to maybe get started on that journey if you are hesitating to take that first step. And I think it's just about going in with that good intent. And then like you said, if you make a mistake culturally, apologise and hopefully the other person will also help you move on.

I'm now going to ask you about my signature questions that I ask all my guests. So, this is the more fun part of the podcast. Describe the Mancunian spirit in a word or a phrase.

[00:23:18] Liz Hibberd: The Mancunian spirit is about having open arms and welcoming everybody. I'm not from here, but I've been welcomed really well. So, it's open arms and a welcoming spirit.

[00:23:29] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you, and I think that's something I've experienced myself and I think many people have mentioned that friendly nature and that willingness to support people and just maybe even just, a nice friendly wave when you're walking your dog, which is also nice.

Can you share a Mancunian who inspires you and why? And tell me about anybody in the past or in the present.

[00:23:52] Liz Hibberd: Well, I can, but I wasn't sure if they needed to be famous or not.

[00:23:56] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: No, many people have chosen family members.

[00:23:59] Liz Hibberd: Well, I'm going to talk about two people that are probably quite well known in the sector - Eve Holt and Kat Passel. Eve used to be our chair of trustees and Kat's on our trustee board now, a councillor and she works for GM Sport, I think, and Kat works for 10 GM. They're both women that are just so passionate and really live what they believe.

You know, it's not just a job and they just get stuff done. It's not about them. It's not about getting the recognition. It's like there's an issue here. We've identified this. How do we fix it? Right? Let's make it happen. So, I'm completely in awe of them all the time.

And I'm so pleased that they've been around to direct the charity and to support me. So yeah, they're brilliant. But I will also say all the women I work with that now come and live in Manchester and call Manchester home. I don't even know what the word is, but the tenacity of making these journeys for safety and putting their families above everything and just, going through what must be so difficult in a certain age, a new country, a new language, trying to make the best of it. They're so powerful and so impressive. I'm amazed every day I work with them.

[00:25:08] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that and shout out to those two ladies you mentioned, as well as all the people that you support who are so inspiring.

What's the most important life lesson you've learned so far?

[00:25:21] Liz Hibberd: You know what I think there's something to be said about timing. I used to be really dismissive about people that were saying when the time's right. But actually, more and more I'm realising that timing does play a part. That when you are ready, you'll be able to do something.

There's no point trying to do everything at a specific time if you are not in that right space. And I think as well, more and more that kind of thing, where if the decision or the situation hasn't gone the way you wanted it, if you didn't get the funding, didn't get the job, didn't get this, actually, sometimes that's a good thing. And you're not always able to appreciate that at the time, but then you're like, oh, I'm glad that didn't happen because this wouldn't have happened. So, I think, that's something that I'm trying to think about a bit more.

[00:26:12] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I like that very much because it is again, that right place, right time, and the context has to be right for you. And I also like the fact that if something doesn't work out, taking the moment to say, oh, maybe that was meant to be and not beating yourself about it. Hard one to follow, but it's a really good tip. Maybe, one I need to hear at this point in time. Thank you for sharing that.

If you could have one superpower, what would that be?

[00:26:42] Liz Hibberd: I thought about this and I think the thing that would make certainly my job better, but just the world in general would be to try and ensure that people have more empathy and compassion for themselves and for other people actually, because you can really, be focused on what you need or what you want.

And other people did something bad to you, something happened, it's their fault. Why are they like that? But actually, understanding people more, taking that time realising that reason that's happened is because of all these other things and actually people showing it to you maybe a bit more. You know, maybe your boss or whoever, like your partner.

There's that element of like, Okay. I'm, I'm kind of annoyed, but actually. I know what you're going through or there's something happening or there must be something I don't know. And again, not taking everything at face value.

[00:27:34] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you. And that is again, such an important one. It would make for a kinder, nicer world because we wouldn't assume just because somebody's rushing or speeding or something like that, there's bad intent. It is with good intent.

Again, very, very thought-provoking. One to consider and one to see how we can, in our own little circles, encourage that more. Really good superpower.

Is there a funny story you'd like to share with listeners? One from work or one from Manchester?

[00:28:07] Liz Hibberd: Well, I'm probably not the best storyteller in the world, but I think a lot of the things are funny that have happened to me and in the work that I do are generally language and around miscommunication and the number of times I thought I was pronouncing something perfectly and nobody had an idea of what I'm saying.

But I guess there's one specific that I was thinking about, and we lived in Argentina for a while when we were teaching English and my Spanish wasn't great, so I'd learned this phrase that I needed to go to the shop and I think to get credit for the phone. I'd rehearsed it, I'd got the pronunciation right, I'd worked it all out, gone in and I'd stood there and I'd said it, and I was really proud of myself.

And then I kind of realised that I hadn't worked out what the response would be. The store owner, he said something and obviously it was very fast and very Spanish, and I had no idea what he said. I panicked and ran out of the shop.

So I think, in retrospect when I asked my friends and colleagues, there was something literally about, oh, you've asked for 10 pounds of credit and I've only got 20 or five pounds. And I just froze and yeah, didn't stop to see it through. I think about that sometimes when I'm working with people and don't get the right response.

[00:29:24] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: And it's sometimes it's taking a moment to laugh at ourselves and say, you know what? Don't take life too seriously.

[00:29:31] Liz Hibberd: …and my Spanish isn't any better to be honest either.

[00:29:33] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm sure you had many other things to focus on than Spanish. No, that's a great story.

Thank you so much Liz, it's been really a pleasure to talk to you today and thank you for educating me a little bit about some of the challenges that your organisation, but more importantly, the people you support and help are going through and I hope you can continue to help many more people integrate and feel welcome in Manchester.

[00:30:01] Liz Hibberd: Thank you very much. It's been lovely talking to you.

Outro

Liz, I really enjoyed learning about welcoming refugees and asylum seekers today.

Dear listener, thank you for listening to the tenth episode of season five of the Meet the Mancunian Podcast, social impact stories from Manchester.

I hope you enjoyed it. And it motivates you to follow your own dreams and passions. Please do consider visiting the website, www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to leave me some feedback or suggestions on what causes resonated with you or ones that you would like to see featured here. I really welcome listener feedback and will do my best to incorporate your suggestions in future episodes.

Next week, the Meet the Mancunian podcast talks to Caroline England about helping children connect with absent loved ones. Tune in on Tuesday 27 June 2023 to hear the next episode.

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