Meet the Mancunian - Talking suicide prevention with Mike Palmer

Meet the Mancunian -5.3-Mike Palmer-Transcript

Intro

Welcome to the fifth season of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, social impact stories from Manchester. I'm Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe, your friendly host. It's privilege and a pleasure for me to interview some of the most inspiring people working in Manchester's social impact sector and feature them on this podcast.

My guests are leaders and worker bees associated as employees, trustees, and volunteers with social enterprises, non-profits, and community groups. They share their life stories and passions with you, dear listener. My aim through this podcast is to inspire you and to share a bit of good news.

My guest tackle serious concerns in Manchester but many of these are also universal themes resonating in many parts of the globe. All my guests talk about the power of collaboration and how together we are stronger. They of course, expand on their pride in Manchester and Mancunians as well.

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If you are a new listener, you can log on to www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to listen to the first four seasons of the podcast and read more about my podcasting story. If you are a returning listener, welcome back. Thank you for your support.

Welcome to the third episode of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, season five. Passionate about supporting suicide prevention awareness, we hear from Mike Palmer, Co-founder, Three Dads Walking In this episode.

Episode 3

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm delighted to introduce my guest, Mike Palmer, co-founder, Three Dads Walking. Thank you so much, Mike, for taking the time today.

Mike Palmer: It's a pleasure, Deepa. Thank you for having me.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'll start with asking you about how you found your passion for helping young people with mental health challenges. I know you have a tragic story… You had a personal loss with your daughter. So I don't know where you want to start, if you want to start right with that passion for young people's mental health or if you want to start with talking about your daughter.

Mike Palmer: I think we have to go back and talk about Beth. I lost my daughter Beth to suicide the beginning of first week of lockdown in March 2020. Beth was just 17 years old. The truth is we never saw it coming. Bethy was there one minute and gone the next. Why she took her own life, we'll never really know, but we can make some guesses. Devastation is too small a word in this case. I'm talking from a father's perspective and I was plunged into a suicide spiral myself. To lose my youngest daughter, my little girl who I absolutely adored and still do adore.

You are absolutely shattered. You are put under the ground. You are literally, it is hard work, even breathing, but as, as time goes on... It's a case of you have to make the decision whether you want to carry on or not. And slowly I managed to sort of start getting out of bed, start operating, and it wasn't overnight.

You know, we'll be three years next March since we lost Beth. And I still live in a very, very dark world at times. But basically what happened was about three weeks after I, well I say I, but my family lost Beth. We were contacted by another family down in Norfolk and the surviving daughter from that family contacted my family and I ended up talking to this girl who'd just lost her sister. Her sister was called Emily and she lived in Norfolk and she'd taken her own life and died basically five, six days before Beth. And I started talking to her father, who was one of the other dads called Tim. But you, but sort of winding on a bit. You, were asking about the passion to help other young people.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Well, specifically I was thinking about mental health issues, but of course also with suicide prevention.

Mike Palmer: We'll get there, of course, as well, we'll get there to mental health issues because obviously the worst result of people struggling with their mental health is them obviously taking their own lives.

It is suicide, you know, that's the way it works. But basically I'd met Tim and I'd started talking to him and I'd found someone that I found common ground with. He was obviously in the same place as I was, but moving forward a bit, this led me to Papyrus. I was drawn to the charity Papyrus because it was a suicide prevention charity.

It is set up to prevent young suicides, and this was very important to me. But I started learning things. And the facts that I learned were that suicide is our biggest killer of under 30s in the UK. I had no idea. Yeah, suicide takes up to 200 school children every year in the UK. It is the biggest killer of men under 45 in the UK.

I had no idea, and I know a lot of people don't either.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: This is very surprising. I mean, it's a hard truth, but it's not well known.

Mike Palmer: No, it isn't well known. And I do believe that we don't talk enough about it. If the biggest threat to our young people is themselves, then they need to know about it.

And they need to be equipped with the life skills they need to keep themselves safe. And you're talking about mental health. I believe there's a mental health crisis at the moment, and I believe it can only get worse. And I think it's affecting our young people. I think there's pressures on them coming from many different angles.

You, you hear about social media, basically the web can be a very, very dark place. There are other things you can talk about, sexuality, race, bullying, you know, all kinds of things. They're all factors. But I do believe our young people are feeling these pressures from different angles than maybe I did in my day and Deepa, I don't know about you in your day?

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Probably much more than my day because I didn't grow up in the time of social media. Social media came when I was well into my thirties.

Mike Palmer: I didn't. And if you're honest and you look at the young people in your lives, I'd be very surprised if they don't have a mobile phone basically stuck to their hand. And this mobile phone isn't just a phone, it is a gateway to wherever they want to go. And if any parents are listening to this, you know, I'm not accusing you of anything or judging you. I know how hard it is. But a lot of the things, the, the facts and opinions that I have that come from me are from talking to people.

You know, at depth, I talk to grieving parents just about every day, bereaved by suicide, and often they, they will tell me that their kids are up in their rooms, basically on their mobile phones, not using them as phones, but using the gateway to wherever they wanted to go. And that can be the dark web, that can be sites that will encourage suicide.

And indeed, you know. And talk about method and means and everything, which is a very, very dark world. But I believe we need to invest in our young people far more in school age, even from early years. Talk about emotions through primary schools. Talk about emotions and age appropriately, of course, but you must at some stage when they're a little older. Certainly, but you must talk about suicide and suicide prevention and what it really means, and teach our young people to reach out, encourage a help seeking culture.

Basically a culture of care, because if we don't teach our young people about suicide in school, as I say, they will just search it. And we want to teach them in a controlled and safe environment, because these young people one day will become our adults and parents.

You know, it is a logical, logical way to do it for us.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Well thank you so much for sharing that and, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter and all the young people and people of all the ages who are you know, choosing to deal with their crisis by suicide. So thank you for what you do, and that brings us very well to some of the work that you are doing to raise awareness as Three Dads Walking, can you tell us about it and what you're focused on?

Mike Palmer: Well, I've told you briefly about meeting Tim. Cut a long story short, I started doing lots of stuff with Papyrus and that included suicide prevention and awareness courses. And there I met another guy's son and this other guy was Andy. And Andy basically had lost his daughter, Sophie, a couple of years before I'd lost Beth and Tim had lost Emily. And we put this idea together. All of us, we all started talking with each other.

You know, we live in different places. Andy lives in a little village called Morland, up near Penrith in Cambria. I live in Sale Manchester and Tim lives near in a little village called Shoulder near Kingsland in Norfolk, and we worked out that it's about 300 miles to walk between the home.

We wanted to illustrate, we wanted to show that suicide was a national UK problem. You know, it, it's a huge problem that goes unseen because of the stigma and everything. So last year we walked between the homes and we'd set off to raise 3000 pounds each, and we in fact raised nearly 800,000 pounds at the end, but Deepa, it wasn't just the money.

The money all goes to Papyrus, you know, help run their wonderful Hope line. A first call number for people who are struggling and people who are struggling but also concerned others can ring this line as well. Whether you be a parent, a professional, a friend, it doesn't matter. You can ring this line.

But we also raised a lot of awareness. We were covered on the BBC. We were covered on Grenada, ITV regionals. We were doing lots of radio things and people seemed to get it. And every day we walked, we did the 300 miles over two weeks, 14 days, and we were joined every day. We rarely walked alone, but not just three of us walking along.

We were joined by other bereaved parents, people who had been affected by young suicide, and it was an incredible journey. We carry our own grief, of course, very much. But when you're talking to other people about how they feel, it's, you know, and the things they've gone through makes you realize you are not alone.

And that is very, very important. Realising you are not alone. Yes. So we walked, but we walked and talked and we learned so much. So when we when we arrived in Shoulder after the two week walk, I mean, we did walk straight into the pub. That was very nice. But we knew we hadn't finished. We knew there's more to do, but one of the single facts that really stood out was the fact that a lot of these parents didn't think their kids had the life skills to keep themselves safe, to know how to reach out, but also as well, and this is something I feel very, you know, I carry a lot of guilt with Beth because I do believe that I missed signs - the way she was acting, her language. You know, that you can put it down as teenage behaviour. But I do believe it was a bit more, and I missed those.

If I'd been more aware, I could have asked those very important questions. And those questions are basically, are you thinking of taking your own life? Are you thinking of suicide? The people I know will go, oh my God, you can't say that. You asked the direct questions, and if you get the answer yes, that you may well do.

Then you can act, you can keep that person safe and when you do that, you'll give them a second chance. Because some of the most powerful stories we heard were people who'd attempted suicide, been in very dark places, but who are now have come out to the other side and now basically living lives. They want to live.

And that doesn't mean every day is rosy, every day is great. They still struggle. But they've given themselves a second chance and they are still here, and they want to be here. And by doing that, they also prevent their families from going through an utter and complete hell. And I say families, they say 135 people are affected by each suicide.

But that's family. That's friends. People who know you work with you, fellow students, even down to the emergency services who've had to attend. Everyone is deeply affected. They say you are 80 to a 300 times more likely to take your own life if you are directly affected by suicide, and I know how that feels.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing this, and this is a lot to think about, but so what does Three Dads Walking now going to do? What is the focus for you next year? Are you going to continue with this awareness?

Mike Palmer: We walked last year [2021], we did the 300 mile walk last year. This year we walked 600 miles [2022]. This year we walked between all the UK parliaments.

So we started off in Belfast. Then we were at Storm, then we came across, we were going to walk from Holyrood, but unfortunately the Queen died a couple of days before. So we had a quiet start to the walk. It was going to be covered on  ITV and BB but sadly, the Queen died.But we carried on, we walked with our flags furled. And then we walked all the way down to Cardiff. And then we walked across basically to Westminster. It took us 31 days. But again, it was a hugely powerful walk.

 But what we are driving this time is we have a petition that you can find on our website. If you look at our website, www.threedadswalking.uk and I'd urge people, please look at it. We are very, very proud of our website. You can read about us, you can read about the girls. It'll tell you about how to get help as well. There's a help button, but we have this petition running to government.

We're on about 153,000 signatures now, and I believe we should have a lot more. But basically it says that suicide prevention needs to be compulsory on the school's curriculum, whether it's on the RSHE [Relationships, sex and health education], that makes sense, but we need to equip our young people. Intervention certainly has its place, but we need prevention.

We need to be proactive on this. We need to go basically to the source of the river. We need to act. We need to get it in. It is so important. I saw a couple of just over a week ago, I saw suicide prevention being run out in a school at Cumbria. I witnessed it with they were about 11-12 year olds. Forgive me, I can't remember which years these are. And 15 - 16 year olds and. Their response was amazing. But they now have basically these skills. They have some knowledge.

It's difficult to understand what kids take in at school, isn't it? But, but we talked afterwards. We talked in groups and they know now they have basic skills of how to keep themselves safe, but also recognise mental health issues in others, their peers and their friends. So this is what we're pushing the school's curriculum.

As I say, we are hoping it'll be discussed in Parliament. We do have enough signatures for that, but we want more signatures to add more weight to it. So I'll say to anyone listening to this Deepa, you look at your young people and you answer this question honestly.

Do you think they're equipped to deal with mental health issues and suicidal thoughts in their life? Because believe me, I was one of those people who would never be affected by suicide. Never my family, you know? And I think a lot of people carry on in ignorant bliss. But I want people to answer that question honestly.

But if the answer is no, Please. I urge them to go to our website, press petition. It'll take you less than a minute to fill it in, and that'll be another signature. This is massively important. We've got meetings coming up next year. We've certainly got one with the shadow secretary of state for education. Bridget Phillipson. We're hoping to get one with the Secretary of State who is for education, who is Jillian Keegan. Yes, we are going to be making a noise in Westminster. Basically, we're still raising money for Ppyrus because charities exist on goodwill and the work they do is absolutely out of this world.

You know, and they feed back to the Three Dads all the time, you know, confidentially. But you know, they are busy. Suddenly, they are very busy. I think we have a mental health crisis that is already here, but is now building.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I think you're making some very good points and a big shout out to listeners to please consider the petition and to support that and to also have those conversations with the young people in their life.

Because I think children under a lot of peer pressure as well. It's not just the dark web, it's peer pressure and it's silly challenges. Which ask you to choke yourself and do silly things like that. So, you know, sometimes it's not, they're in a dark place, but they're just doing something very, very silly because it’s there, and that doesn't go right. So not all of it, I guess, is deliberate.

Tell us a little bit about the challenges that you face, because what you've got is a fairly, very difficult situation. Like you said, you've shared a lot of hard truths. Are there some challenges you've had to overcome to create this awareness, to get that outreach to both ministers and to schools?

Mike Palmer: Well, if you're talking about us personally, you know, we're three bereaved dads. We carry the, the scars of losing our little girls. You see us walking across the country with our flags, you know, looking like something out of a Monty Python sketch and whatever. But that's what we are, what we are three ordinary dads. We loved our little girls. We, but we do believe that. Other families don't have to do this.

So, but we are tackling our own mental health issues because we see the damage it's done to our families and the outfall and we live with this every day. You know the other challenges are we get a pushback sometimes for people not wanting to talk about suicide, because it is a very difficult word and I get that. I absolutely do get that.

But, you know, we need to encourage parents to try and talk to their young people. You know, keep talking. It's very difficult with teenagers. Do not think, I do not know this. You know, they do not want to talk. But if you can keep those lines of communication open, that is absolutely brilliant.

But even some schools as well, they don't want to talk about suicide because they think it will cause suicide. That is not the case. You know, we really need to talk about it in schools, as I said, so kids don't search it for themselves, you know, so there are hurdles there.

Suicide used to be a criminal act. That is why it was always termed as committed suicide. That isn't something we encourage. Now, if you lost someone to suicide, they did not commit anything. Because it was it was decriminalised in 1961, you know, and it's also not an act against any religion, church, or anything like that. Now, churches also must and they do this now, instead of saying, you know, they've committed suicide, they've done this, they must realise that sometimes it is a mental health problem.

You know, it is. That person wasn't in a good place, you know, often they didn't want to do it. So it's the understanding as well. You know, so all religions, all churches, we must encourage them to speak out, but be preventative themselves, not judgmental after the act, but you know, talk to people. Say you can reach out. You know it's okay to talk about that you are not well, you are not feeling good. You know, tell someone seek help because you are worth it.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Well thank you. Well, I think if you can prevent that is so much better than trying to do anything that you can do after. So, absolutely. You've talked a little bit about the impact you've made.

Is there anything else you'd like to share about the impact you've managed to make, both with Papyrus as well as with the awareness that you're creating, the outreach to bereaved parents as well?

Mike Palmer: Well, we, we've Papyrus runs Hope Line Uk. That as I said, as I said before, but I'll say it again, it's a first call number.

Mike Palmer: If you are, if you are worried about yourself as a young person, you know, if you need help, you can ring them. They have a tech service and email service as well, and you can, you can find a help button on our website as well if you want to, the three duds walking.uk website. But we, that is going to be going 24 hours soon.

Mike Palmer: Okay. I say it's, it is for concerned others as well, but it's going 24 hours and that is off the back of the money that we've raised. Cause we've raised over a million pounds now for papyrus and it's still going up. That's

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: amazing that it'll become 24 hours.

Mike Palmer: It, it needs to become 24 hours, you know, for obvious reasons.

Mike Palmer: Sure. You know, but, but Papyrus is a charity, it's a growing charity. It's a very warm, loving charity. You know, we get a lot of support off them as well. We don't just raise money for them and that's it, you know, we get a lot of support off them, and we absolutely believe in, in what they do, but it's having the resources to run Hopeline UK 24 hours. But hopefully we've given this to now they are training people and it should be pretty imminent. That will open 24 hours and that will be absolutely brilliant. But I think also we've got people talking. I think a lot of people now when we were walking, we were joined by people who lost kids, loved ones decade ago and they'd never really talked about it, but hopefully we've given permission because we are a bit unusual being three men, as you may have, been gathering Deepa, that men are notorious for not being able to talk. We three dads are notorious for, well, basically you can't shut us up, so maybe we're a little different in that, but hopefully we're encouraging people to talk.

Because the amazing thing is, and the sad thing is that you talk to people. If you've been affected by suicide, you start talking about it and you will suddenly realise that you are not alone. People you've known for years and years will tell you that they've been affected, sadly affected by suicide too, and we all need to push together on this.

Lives can be saved here. They really can. So, obviously we are pushing the petition as well and we will push that right to the end as well. We will make noise in Westminster. We’re not walking as yet next year. I don’t know whether we will, but there is another walk going. Well, another challenge going on that's very important is linking all the charities called the Baton of Hope, run by a guy called Mike McCarthy, who I've met and talked to -another bereaved dad -and we will support that. We will support other people's missions as well.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that. You've mentioned your website, but are there any other social media channels or anything you'd like to say? How can interested people reach out to you and learn more?

Mike Palmer: Yes. Unfortunately, that's not really my department. We leave that to the oldest dad, Andy, who's 62. He'll love me telling you that. But he does all the socials, but we have Instagram pages. And we have our own YouTube channel as well. So if, if you search those, you can certainly pick us up on that, on our own Facebook page as well. So we do try and keep those up to date, but to be quite honest, that's really Andy who does that.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you. What advice would you have for somebody starting to start a similar movement in another part of the world? Or another part of the UK, as I said, there are listeners from over 44 countries and they're also listeners from across the UK. So they might be inspired and try to do something similar. How do they start?

Mike Palmer: It is true what you say, you know, suicide is a huge killer all over the world. You know, I'm not party to all the figures in other parts of the world, but you know what? We hear different cultures and things, it's viewed in different ways.It often carries its own stigma in those cultures and, and other religions.

But I'll say to encourage people, first of all, to talk. You know, encourage your young people to talk about how they feel and their feelings, you know, and I'd point people towards our website as well, read our stories because we were three dads who, even though we loved our little girls, our little girls stories that were all different, but we'd never thought this thing would happen to us.

It was something that happened to other people, Deepa. But you know, we have been plunged into this place, but I'd encourage talking in different places. If you talk, other people will come. If you shout loud enough about this, others will come to you. You realise you are not alone, and you get two or three people with the same cause, and these causes will grow.

Our young people are so precious. I always talk about young people. Remember these young people, you keep them safe. They will, as I say, they will come adults and parents. So shout loud.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you. And I think what you've said about the support is so important because you know, one person on their own versus you know, a group of people with the support of a charity. I really like what you are doing. Thank you so much for sharing that.

An opportunity for you to now tell us about anything that I haven't asked you about before I ask you my signature questions that I ask all my guests.

Mike Palmer: No, I don't think so. I mean, let's talk about, there briefly was on our first walk and since actually we've had some very high profile people who've we had Nicole Kidman donated 10,000 pounds. Lou Macari, Daniel Craig. But what I'm getting at with these people who've sent us messages and supporters, it shows you that suicide and mental health issues don't discriminate. I don't know their stories, but there were reasons obviously that they did support us.

Mike Palmer: And we also got a… well, I've got a Pride of Manchester Award. Also, all three of us got the Pride of Britain Award and we got a Just Giving award. But all these are very important platforms for us to be able to keep shouting. It's all bittersweet getting these awards. We are there in our suits or sometimes we even wear our shorts.Because we've lost our girls, but it's very important for us to be out there and shouting from these platforms.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that.

I'm going to ask you now my signature questions. I ask all my guests, and it's my favourite part of the podcast. So the first one for you is describe the Mancunian spirit in a word or a phrase.

Mike Palmer: It's difficult.... I'm thinking while I'm talking, but basically the Mancunian spirit has been shown to me in a big way just recently, because even in my hometown of Sale, we've had several organisations raising money. One was one they did Santa Dash with Jane Dennison and everyone at the Mile Shy Club.

They club together to raise money for Papyrus off the back of Three Dads Walking. Yes. My local gym, Brooklyn Sports Club, they just did something this weekend. I have Trafford and Metro Swim Club want to do something for the three dads. They're doing a marathon swim. Trafford community fitness also are doing that.

So this is just describing, the Mancunian spirit. So I think the Mancunian spirit is about togetherness and supporting and friendship, I think because yeah, it is amazing stuff.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that. And yes, I definitely see that in a small way myself even as a new Mancunian.

Can you share a Mancunian who inspires you and why? Somebody who's living or somebody from the past as well,

Mike Palmer: To be quite honest, I think it would have to be my grandfather. He was a very quietly spoken, very humble man. When you look back to what he did in the second World War. And he wasn't posted abroad, but he did some amazing things with the Home Guard, including one of those things. He rescued several airmen when the Wellington Bomber crashed in Walton Park. But he never really spoke about it, but I read all the all the reports and the commendations afterwards that we've still got. And yeah, he was just a very humble, quiet man. Yet he was capable of that kind of bravery. So. My granddad Eric Meacham.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that, that he does sound amazing. And one of my 99 year old neighbours was also in the Home Guard briefly during the First World War. They did some really good work, didn't they?

What's the most important life lesson you've learned so far?

Mike Palmer: Never take life for granted. It can change in an instant, and I'm talking about Beth, she was here one minute and gone the next. Never take it for granted. You know, live life every day as if you really mean it, because it can become very hard very quickly.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that.

If you could have one superpower, what would that be?

Mike Palmer: Time travel. I'd go back and I'd talk to Beth. And I have no doubt she she'd be here now if I could do that.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe:  I wish that superpower comes to you and to others as well. You know, this is something that we always cherish those moments that don't come back.

To end the podcaster, is there a funny story you'd like to share with listeners? Maybe one about, I don't know, you said it, you ended up after walking30 days you went running to a pub. I don't know if there's a funny story you have around Three Dads Walking or Manchester. I know it's a very difficult subject, so you may not have something…

Mike Palmer: I mean the, the thing about our walks last year and this year is that obviously it's tinged with immense sadness and, and grief of course. But when we walk together, myself, Andy, and Tim, we are completely different characters. Absolutely. You couldn't put us together. But we basically, we laughed all the way. We laughed and we cried, you know, and it was all, you know, stuff like this.

But, you know, our journeys were, you know, we were stuck in hedges, we were chased by cattle. You know what? We were caught weeing behind walls and things like that. You know,  it was like almost a boy's adventure, you know, off we went in our shorts, you know, our coloured t-shirts, our caps, our flags. You know, people, you know, please look at our website, you know, we know what we look like, but we absolutely believe in what we do.

So, you know, for, you know, to pick out a. A certain incident, you know, probably, yeah, it's hard. But, but there were lots of them. But it's one of those, you had to be there, you know, when you're walking along a line of cattle, that's a cow. That's a cow, that's a cow. And you realise that's not a cow. And that's a very big animal and it's not looking happy.

Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That is a good note. Mike, thank you so much for talking to me and my listeners. I really enjoyed learning about helping young people prevent suicide today. It's a very important subject, and thank you for everything you do.

Mike Palmer: Thank you, Deepa.

Outro

Mike, I really enjoyed learning about raising awareness of suicide prevention.

Dear listener, thank you for listening to the third episode of season five of the Meet the Mancunian Podcast, social impact stories from Manchester. I hope you enjoyed it. And it motivates you to follow your own dreams and passions.

Pleased do consider visiting the website www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to leave me some feedback or suggestions on what causes resonated with you. Or ones that you would like to see featured here. I really welcome listener feedback and will do my best to incorporate your suggestions in future episodes.

Next week, the Meet the Mancunian podcast talks to Krish Patel. About the power of storytelling. Tune in on Tuesday, 9 May, 2023 to hear the next episode.

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