Meet the Mancunian - Talking supporting disabled creatives with Melissa Johns

Meet the Mancunian- 5.7 – Melissa Johns – transcript

Intro

Welcome to the fifth season of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, social impact stories from Manchester. I'm Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe, your friendly host. It's a privilege and a pleasure for me to interview some of the most inspiring people working in Manchester's social impact sector and feature them on this podcast.

My guests are leaders and worker bees associated as employees, trustees, and volunteers with social enterprises, non-profits, and community groups. They share their life stories and passions with you, dear listener. My aim through this podcast is to inspire you and share a bit of good news.

My guests tackle serious concerns in Manchester but many of these are also universal themes resonating in many parts of the globe. All my guests talk about the power of collaboration and how together we are stronger. They, of course, expand on their pride in Manchester and Mancunians as well.

I hope you enjoy listening to the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Google, or any of your favourite podcasting platforms. You can also listen to the podcast episodes and read the transcripts on my website www.meetthemancunian.co.uk.

If you are a new listener, you can log on to www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to listen to the first four seasons of the podcast, and read more about my podcasting story. If you are a returning listener, welcome back. Thank you for your support.

Welcome to the seventh episode of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, season five.

Passionate about supporting disabled creatives? We hear from Melissa Johns, Actor, Writer and Co-Creative Lead, TripleC in this episode.

Episode 7

[00:00:00] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm delighted to introduce my guest, Melissa Jones, actor, writer and co-creative lead of TripleC. Thanks so much, Melissa, for taking the time on a Sunday morning.

[00:00:11] Melissa Johns: Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely. I've got my cup of tea and what a nice way to spend my Sunday morning. I like it.

[00:00:19] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: So first, tell us about how you found your passion for supporting disabled creatives. Where did that come from?

[00:00:26] Melissa Johns: So, it was quite an easy one for me because I am a disabled creative myself. I was born without my right forearm and that kind of leads to two other access requirements that I have. I'm also an actor, and writer, so I've been working in the industry for 10-11 years now. So, I guess when your lived experience is the thing that seems to that you don't seem to see as much, when your lived experience is seen to society as a barrier. Obviously I don't see it as a barrier, but, you know, our industry, and society in general can put so many barriers in place. It kind of falls on your shoulders to break down those barriers, really.

I always say that I didn't want to be and when I was younger and someone said to me, you know, what do you want to be when you're older? And I didn't say I want to be a disability advocate or a campaigner? You know, I never used those words. I just said I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to tell stories and I wanted to take on characters.

But sometimes when, you know, a particular industry isn't set up for a community of people your pathway, I don't think it changes, but you have an extra pathway added onto it, and it means that in order to succeed in this industry, you've got to do a little bit of fighting along the way. And I'm so lucky that I kind of get to break down these barriers and help change this industry alongside some incredible disabled creatives, deaf, disabled, and or neurodivergent creatives, that are out there.

So it's certainly not just me and not just TripleC. There are, there are some incredible people out there really changing the face of our industry. So, for me, it was never the plan to do this because when I was younger and maybe a bit more naive, I didn't think I would have to do it. But as I got older, I realised that actually, you know, nobody really looked like me, on TV, or kind of in the arts.

And that meant that I was going to have to join this great group of people to try and change the way that the industry looks. And I love it. Actually, it is my passion. I think, first of all, I kind of started it thinking, oh gosh, this is going to be really difficult actually, you know, as all I want to do is work in this industry and I'm going to have to change people's minds along the way.

And that feels like a lot of extra effort, but it's one of the most rewarding things for in my own career as an actor. When I get a role, not only is that wonderful for me, kind of selfishly, you know, I'm happy to have the role, but equally I know that it's doing something even bigger than that because it's representing a group of people that aren't seen very often.

So yes, well, it's difficult because the passion runs… Neither one would exist without the other. I think my career and TripleC kind of run parallel to each other. But yes, it's not something I ever imagined I would need to do, but thing is I am doing it, as I say, alongside some brilliant people.

It's incredibly rewarding and watching this industry change for the better is a really wonderful thing. That's not to say that we are there yet, though. We've still got a lot of changes to make. There's a still a long way to go.

[00:03:37] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thanks so much for sharing that Melissa, and we did speak to somebody in the disability space - Alex Winstanley, and he was talking about 20% of the world being disabled, but being perhaps the most forgotten about majority. And absolutely, the work you're doing, both as an actor and with TripleC, which we will just come to in a minute is so important to allow people to see that there are role models out there, there are people who are doing this, and they could see themselves on stage or off stage as per their passions.

Tell us then about TripleC and what does it do?

[00:04:14] Melissa Johns: So TripleC is a BAFTA award-winning organisation. We're a CIC so we're a community interest company. We are disabled-led. Everyone that works in the company well, the very high majority of those working in the company are creatives working in the industry. So, whether that be actors, writers, directors, musicians, comedians, visual artists you know, the list goes on.

Everyone that works in TripleC, and leads TripleC and kind of steers the organisation, not only are they deaf, disabled and or neurodivergent. So have the experience of access and inclusion and knowing what it's like to be deaf, disabled or neurodivergent. They also have the lived experience of being a working creative, working across tv, film, the arts and media.

So together we kind of bring that collective knowledge, put it as one and I guess our main aim is to try and change the face and future of the arts. Whether that's tv, film, arts, or media. We know that as, as you just mentioned yourself, the disabled community is a really underrepresented group.

We've been at the back of the queue for quite a while. And so TripleC creates projects that just break down those barriers so that anyone wanting to access the arts can access the arts.

The way that we do that is through a few different strands. So one of our strands is our education strand, where we work with disabled children and young people. We go into special educational needs schools where we use drama as a tool for self-advocacy and communication and confidence building. Our work with young people is really huge. It's so important to us because, you know, when we were growing up, we didn't necessarily see role models. We always use well both disabled and non-disabled workshop leaders, which is really important to us so that there's not a kind of divide or a segregation there.

But when, drama is cut from the curriculum for disabled children, you know, that's incredibly damaging. When drama in the arts is cut from any young person's life, that that's damaging. But when it's a young person with a disability… Quite often as people with disabilities, we often get spoken for. People think that they know what we need better than we do. And so, what drama can do is it can really support that confidence and that self-advocacy. Even if you don't want to go on and have a career in the arts, the tools that you can get from having drama in your life are huge and they can carry you through so many situations. Our work with young people is, one that we really value.

We do community outreach, so supporting adults in the community, disabled adults in the community, and using creativity to combat isolation. And then we have DANC, the disabled artist networking community. And DANC is one of our biggest strands.

In fact, it's got so big that people now think it's its own organisation, but it does very much still sit underneath TripleC. And at DANC, we now have over 1600 deaf, disabled, and or neurodivergent creatives. Again, they are writers, actors, directors, musicians, comedians, visual artists, poets. The list goes on.

And what we do with DANC is in a nutshell, we provide career development. We put on events, networking events, masterclass webinars, one-to-ones, mentoring schemes. We put on lots of different projects that really help work on deaf, disabled and neurodivergent creatives career development. So, they're constantly moving up in their career development.

And on the other side, we work with the industry so, we work with amazing arts venues, theatres, broadcasters, production companies. We work with BBC, Netflix, Screen Skills, Channel Four. We're working with the industry at the same time to make sure that they are ready to be accessible and inclusive. We offer them training. We work on schemes and programmes that they can run within their organisation.

So essentially what that does, is it's elevating both sides at the same time, we're elevating deaf, disabled and neurodivergent creatives, and we're elevating the industry so that hopefully sometime very soon we will have an industry that completely marries up. And is as accessible and inclusive as it can be.

So we really do do a whole 360 approach. Also, some of the creatives that are part of the DANC database, the Disabled Artist Networking database, they go in and run workshops with young people. We call it the Swiss roll approach. It's everything feeding into the next thing.

Those artists also support us when we run training with organisations as jobs in between their creative jobs. It really is about elevating the industry, the people that work in the industry and our next generation of young people so that they know that this is an industry for them.

[00:09:17] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you so much for sharing that, Melissa. It does sound like you're taking that full 360-degree approach, and that's so important because both, enabling deaf, disabled and neuro divergent creatives, as well as helping the industry be more inclusive, more accessible, and prepare for, how they could allow more representation to take place.

[00:09:38] Melissa Johns: Absolutely.

[00:09:40] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: There must be challenges that you've faced on this journey. Like you said, it's not quite there yet. Tell us a little more about some challenges that you had to overcome.

[00:09:50] Melissa Johns: There's certainly challenges. And as I say, we are in a really good place. We are in a better place than we've ever been in terms of the employment and the opportunities and the representation of deaf, disabled, and neurodivergent people. On our screens, on our stages, behind camera, off stage.

We are in a better place than we've ever been. But it's now that we can't get complacent because quite often when we are, when good work is happening, it's easier for the industry maybe to take their foot off the accelerator and go, oh, but we're doing really well with it at the moment, so maybe we, you know, it's okay. We've got this sorted and we haven't got it sorted.

As the disabled community, we've kind of been told that this industry isn't for us for so many years, that it is going to take a little bit longer to really, break that mould. I think that, one of the hardest things will always be changing someone's mindset.

What we often see in the industry are real penny drop moments when you know, people that are really high up decision makers, people that really can change, change this industry. They have that penny drop moment where they realise that they are absolutely in a position to create more opportunities for people from underrepresented groups and, and in this case deaf, disabled and neuro divergent creatives.

It's lovely when you see that penny drop moment because you go, you've just got it. You've totally just understood it and I know that you are going to now factor this into your work. What's really hard, is obviously when it's not done right, so when access requirements aren't taken into consideration.

So, you know, people think that, well, I can't do that. I can't put that in place. And nine times out of 10 we can put access requirements, in place. I mean, we have to remember also there's a legal requirement to actually make things accessible. But I think sometimes it's really hard when things aren't accessible, and then whoever has put that event on, maybe refused to take responsibility for it.

I am the co-creative leader at TripleC with the brilliant Cherylee Houston. And, you know, Cherylee and I have always remained really solution-focused, so we never tell anyone off. We never, get really angry and upset. We try to do it in a really positive and solution focused way, and I think it's just really hard when the defence comes up from the other side.That's one of the hardest things.

It's so wonderful when you just say to someone, I'm really sorry that wasn't accessible, and I was just wondering if we could have a chat about how we could help you make it accessible. We're not telling you off. It's not a lecture. We're just trying to help and if it would be useful for us to discuss ways of it being accessible, that might be useful. And it's brilliant when you get people that go, oh my gosh. Absolutely.

For instance, I know that this conversation came about from Simon Naylor at 53Two. 53Two have been fantastic. They are so accessible, and they just listen. They just want to do better all the time. And so they work with us on, a regular occasion. That's where it really works when people just listen. The hardest thing is when people get defensive about it and there's nothing to get defensive about. It's okay not to know everything, but what will make this work is when you listen and then you act upon it.

[00:12:54] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you so much for sharing that and absolutely. I have experienced 53Two myself. I had gone there for a podcasting meetup and there was a disabled podcaster who was part of it. And the bathrooms and many other things have, are extremely disabled friendly, even hooks at a lower level on the walls, which I…

[00:13:12] Melissa Johns: They're fantastic, aren't they? They've done such a great job and we love working with them.

[00:13:18] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: So tell us about the impact you made because it sounds like you're making a lot of impact. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[00:13:25] Melissa Johns: Yeah, so I'd say just before lockdown, so kind of March 2020, we had 450 creatives on the DANC database and we've now got over 1600. So it's just been about, I know, pushing that message out and allowing people to come and join this community and help each other out and not feel isolated, in thinking that they're the only one.

The kind of growth of the company is the first thing. And the amount of people we've been able to reach. We won a BAFTA in April last year. We won the BAFTA Special award, the craft special award for our services to the industry, which was huge. To my knowledge, a disabled-led organisation hasn't won a bath before.

That was a real game changer for us. And it obviously meant that lots of people started to listen, you know, the industry really started to listen when they kind of knew that we'd had that award. The other thing is that we have just been selected as an NPO, so a national portfolio organisation for the arts council.

So up until now, you know, our funding has been project by project and for the first couple of years, a lot of it was voluntary. Cherylee and I and the rest of the brilliant team would put in a lot of hours, from early morning to late at night. And as I say, you know, a high majority of us have other jobs as well.

Cherylee and I would be on set filming something and then we'd, in our lunch breaks, we'd make sure we were trying to get some meetings in. So for us to kind of grow as quickly as we have and now become a national portfolio organisation as of April this year. We are incredibly proud and we're incredibly grateful because we know that we get a lot of wonderful support from so many people. We just want to keep going. We just want to reach more people. We want to create more opportunities, increase that employment across the board. Every milestone we hit. just pushes us to go even further. And you know, the idea will be that maybe one day TripleC won't exist in the capacity that it does at the moment.

At the moment it's about, whilst there are so many opportunities, we also do a lot of just campaigning to make sure that we are in the room. And I think one day it would be lovely to think that, actually we could just exist maybe as a production company that just makes work. And I honestly think that, that that will happen. I don't know when. We need to do, the industry as a whole needs to do a little bit more, but I think one day we can definitely achieve that.

[00:15:50] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I hope that day comes soon. That sounds wonderful. Congratulations on the BAFTA. I think you're my first guest with the BAFTA, so really exciting for me. And of course you know, to be part of the National Arts Council's NPO - National Portfolio Organisation - can also mean a lot for the organisation. That's really great.

How can interested people reach out to you and learn more?

[00:16:17] Melissa Johns: We have a social media presence. On Twitter we have, and this is where I now have to rush to Twitter to find out what we're called on Twitter. So on Twitter, we are at TripleC_uk. And that's the word triple and the letter C. And we also have a DANC Twitter page, which is at DANC_ uk. So if anyone's on Twitter, they can find us online.

We have a website. If you Google TripleC. You'll be able to find our website, which has more information. The website is always being developed, as I'm sure every website is always being developed, isn't it? But we're always adding more to that.

So that there may be things on there that, that we are doing, that doesn't have a presence on the website at the moment, but that's kind of underway. And then our email address. Our email address is triplecmanchester@gmail.com. Although, it's got Manchester in the email address, we are UK wide.

We started in Manchester. Pretty much everyone that kind of works with TripleC directly works in Manchester lives in Manchester. The DANC network, the 1600 creatives that's all over the UK. We've even got people outside the UK, actually. So although we are very proud to be a Manchester, that's where the seed started. We are UK wide.

[00:17:40] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thanks so much for sharing that. And I'll of course include your website in our show notes so people can find you easily.

[00:17:47] Melissa Johns: Wonderful.

[00:17:49] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: What advice do you have for people looking to start a similar movement in their local community? If they want to work for disabled creatives and kind of give them a voice and be an advocate, where should they start?

[00:18:00] Melissa Johns: I think anyone wanting to support the work that deaf, disabled and neurodivergent people do, I think one of the biggest things for me is remember that being an ally is not being a saviour. And I know that might come across a little bit harsh. And of course, most people are allies. Every so often though you meet someone who, who maybe does it for the wrong reason.

I think the very first thing is to check that you are not doing it to be a good person. You're not doing it to help out a community of people and you're just doing it to make yourself feel good. Do it because you genuinely believe that this group of people deserve to have the same access to the world and in this particular case, to the arts as everyone else.

That's super important, that someone's talent is valued. That it's not just because of disability. It should be that you really understand that this community of people should have their place in the world, and they haven't had that right place yet. So I think that that's the first one.

I'd say that for us, you know, the reason why TripleC and DANC work so well are because of that solution-focused nature. It's okay to get annoyed and upset. And don't get me wrong, internally we, within the organisation when things, when it feels like something's taken a backstep, of course we share that with each other and we say how frustrating that is and, and we absolutely share those frustrating moments, but I think when you are really trying to change someone's mind and you're really trying to kind of get them on board with access and inclusion, it's really important to keep as solution-focused and as positive as you can.

I think that, as with anything that we don't see very often, it can be quite, a scary thing to navigate. When it comes to disability, we get so worried about terminology. We get so worried about saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing. You know, am I going to get told off if I say this? And, most people don't mean to say the wrong thing. They really don't. So it's, it's super important to absolutely correct people and tell them, what a certain way of saying something is, but there's always a way of doing it. There's a tone that can go with it that, I think, pushes everyone further along the line in a much better way.

I think, those couple of things, always make sure you're doing it for the right reason. Do it because, it's not that you are, you can tell the world that you know that it's about helping disabled people. It's, not really, it's about kind of standing shoulder to shoulder with a community of people that you know should have their place and you will work with them however you can to try and help them get that place.

Lastly, that tone it's just much better if you can kind of just approach everything in a much more positive light. It just means that people listen a lot more and know that you can do it. Anyone can be an ally. You really can.

And we encourage anyone that wants to support any of the work we do and the work that so many brilliant disabled led organisations are also doing. Just have a Google, send people a message and see what you can do.

[00:20:55] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thanks so much for sharing that, Melissa and absolutely, like you said, it's about partnering. Rather than you know, preaching or teaching because nobody wants to be called out...

[00:21:06] Melissa Johns: I like that. Partnering. Partnering, not preaching. That's nice.

[00:21:12] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: An opportunity now for you to talk about anything I haven't asked you about. Anything coming up in the next few months.

[00:21:18] Melissa Johns: Absolutely. So, April is an exciting month for us, actually. It marks the one year since we won our BAFTA, it's the month that we become an NPO. So, you know, TripleC we're incredibly grateful for all of those opportunities. And it's really lovely to be able to kind of mark that one year anniversary with the next step in in our organisation.

And everyone in the organisation is doing such wonderful things. There are so many DANC actors that are on fantastic TV shows at the moment. We've got DANC writers that are writing such brilliant TV shows, at the moment. We've got actors in theatre shows across the UK. I think that things are changing, and we are starting to have a presence, and it's just about really pushing that and, and making sure that it continues to happen.

As I say, I love being an actor. It's what I wanted to do since I was younger. I'm fortunate enough to work in TV and have that as my job. My third series of Grantchester, which is on ITV, I think it's possibly March our next series comes out And you know, I'm so lucky that I get to do what I love, and work with such brilliant people and alongside that work with brilliant people running co-running with some great people TripleC.

So as long as that can continue, then I feel like I'm a very lucky girl.

[00:22:39] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you so much for sharing that. I did notice that your co-creator is on Coronation Street, which is I think my mother-in-law's favourite

[00:22:49] Melissa Johns: Absolutely.

[00:22:49] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: She's always watching that.

[00:22:51] Melissa Johns: Oh, she's a Coronation Street fan. Our brilliant Cherylee Houston, who is just wonderful. She's the beating heart of TripleC, and she has, oh gosh, I don't want to get this wrong. I think she's been in Coronation Street for 11 years now. And yeah, she plays Izzy Armstrong. I think what's great is that, Cherylee and Coronation Street together have really paved the way because Cherylee has incredible storylines, which is how it should be. They're not storylines that are about pity, or anything like that. They're storylines of just real people just as they should be.

I think it's always about getting that balance of making sure that as actors and writers, then we still have our presence in the industry as well as campaigning for change along the way.

[00:23:36] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I come to the signature questions that I ask all my guests and I will try and get through them as quickly as I can. So, describe the Mancunian spirit in a word or a phrase.

[00:23:46] Melissa Johns: Oh. Heart-swelling. I know that's almost two, but if I put a dash between it, then it won't be. Heart-swelling. The spirit of Manchester is one that fills my heart with so much joy. I think in the poem by Tony Walsh, it says some born here, some drawn here, but all call it home. And I wasn't born here, but I was drawn here, and I do call this my home.

I have bought a home here, and I hope that it's the place where I'll be able to raise a family. It's got so much heart and I couldn't love it anymore if I tried.

[00:24:20] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you so much. That does sound lovely. Can you share a Mancunian who inspires you and why?

[00:24:26] Melissa Johns: Oh gosh, there are so many. That's a really hard question. There are so many wonderful people that I've met since living here that have honestly changed my life. Cherylee Houston being one of them I now get to obviously co lead TripleC with Cherylee. But she has been such a support for my own career and just somebody that constantly gives.

I think the brilliant Julie Hesmondhalgh is just fantastic. Somebody that, again, just wants to fight for everybody else's rights as well. And it's a theme with Manchester, isn't it? Everyone just wants to support and if they can't give money or they can't give riches, what they can do is they can give their time and they can invite you in for a brew. And I don't think I know any other place that can do that.

[00:25:13] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that and absolutely, totally agree. What's the most important life lesson you've learned?

[00:25:20] Melissa Johns: Oh, the most important life lesson that I've learned I think is when things aren't going as well as I wish they were going to accept that feeling. Not to push it away, maybe even indulge in it for 24 hours. Just have a moment where I think, oh, you know what? Today wasn't the best day. And it feels like things are maybe not going as well as I would like them to.

Just allow myself to be able to feel that feeling. And then when I'm ready, just remember that we have got no idea what is about to happen next. We really don't. And whilst that's a really scary thing, that's also a really exciting thing. In this industry, especially as an actor, we think we know so much.

We think we know that, you know, oh, everything's going wrong, and I didn't get that audition. And we often go straight for the negative, whereas actually, you have got no idea what kind of conversations are going on behind closed doors. You don't know whether you are going to get a phone call tomorrow that says, you've got your next audition and that's going to be the job that changes everything.

We really do have no idea. I chose this industry because it's exciting and it keeps me on my toes, and it keeps the butterflies in my tummy flying around. And part of that is just being excited about the unknown. So I have to remind myself of that every so often. And when things don't feel like they're going as well, really allowing myself to indulge in that if I have to in order to, recognise that it's there and that it will pass.

[00:26:54] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I really like that, and you know, it is embracing uncertainty. And you know, looking at it as potential and opportunity, isn't it?

[00:27:02] Melissa Johns: Absolutely that, exactly.

[00:27:04] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

[00:27:08] Melissa Johns: Oh, this one's easy. Teleportation, I would not have to travel. I would just I would just, yeah, click my fingers and I would be back in Herefordshire having a cup of tea with my nana Pam. Or I would click my fingers and I'd be having dinner with my mom and dad around the table without having a three to four hour drive.

I would go and see the people that I miss that don't live in this country. I'd be able to get to auditions in London without paying 80 pounds for a train ticket. So that's what I would do. I would click my fingers and be where I need to be when I need to be there knowing that I can also come straight back home.

[00:27:44] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: It's a great one and it would save us all so much time and allow us to spend more time with loved ones as well, so lovely one. Thank you.

So, Melissa, thank you so much. It's been lovely to talk to you and you know, learn a little bit more about the amazing work that you and TripleC and all those amazing creatives are doing. So thanks so much.

[00:28:06] Melissa Johns: Thank you. It's been really lovely to chat and, and thanks for kind of shining a light on the work that we do.

Outro

Melissa, I really enjoyed learning about supporting disabled creatives today.

Dear listener, thank you for listening to the seventh episode of Season five of the Meet the Mancunian Podcast, social impact stories from Manchester.

I hope you enjoyed it. And it motivates you to follow your own dreams and passions. Please do consider visiting the website, www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to leave me some feedback or suggestions on what causes resonated with you or ones that you would like to see featured here. I really welcome listener feedback and will do my best to incorporate your suggestions in future episodes.

Next week, the Meet the Mancunian podcast talks to Hannah Ballard about supporting climate action. Tune in on Tuesday, 6 June 2023 to hear the next episode.

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Thank you so much. Enjoy the sun!