Meet the Mancunian - Talking supporting-led architecture with Charlie Butterwick

Meet the Mancunian-6.10-Charlie Butterwick-transcript

Intro

Hello, and a warm Mancunian welcome to all my incredible listeners out there. I'm Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe, your friendly host, and you've just tuned in to the sixth season of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, where I share remarkable social impact stories from the heart of Manchester every Tuesday throughout the season.

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Join me as I continue to share these inspiring tales of change and community support from the beating heart of Manchester. Together we can spread a bit of good news, spark meaningful conversations, and inspire positive action. Thank you for being a part of the Meet the Mancunian community.

Welcome to the 10th episode of season Six of the Meet the Mancunian podcast, social impact stories from Manchester. Passionate about community-led architecture? We hear from Charlie Butterwick, Director, Architecture Unknown in this episode.

Episode 6.10

[00:02:59] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm delighted to introduce my guest, Charlie Butterwick. Director, Architecture Unknown. Thank you so much for taking the time on a Monday evening.

[00:03:08] Charlie Butterwick: Hi Deepa, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:03:11] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Very excited to know more about all the good work you're doing. First, perhaps tell us about how you found your passion for community-led architecture. And because we have listeners from around the world who may not be familiar, what is community-led architecture?

[00:03:26] Charlie Butterwick: It's a great question. I often start by when I answer this question is how do you define good architecture? I think most architects get into this profession because they're passionate about making the world a better place. And so when I think about that, how do you define what a better place is? You can go with your own gut instinct as to what would make a place better. And lots of architects throughout history have done that and produced some wonderful buildings, but we've also received some shockers along the way.

And a lot of the time those buildings that you might think of as bad buildings, they last quite a long time, and they can have quite significant negative social impacts fundamentally. So, when I start that question, what makes a good building, I often ask, okay, where is the building and who is going to be in receipt of it fundamentally?

And what do they think of it? And what do they need this building to achieve? And how do they want it to work? And how does it, how do they want to fund it? And who do they want to own it? And then ultimately, what do they want it to look like? Because how can you really understand a place from afar. If you're an architect, you work in lots of places, but it's the people that live in them that really know them the best.

So, for us, community-led architecture, it's fundamentally about asking the right questions and embracing the humility to listen and understand other people's points of view, but also their expertise in the places where they live.

[00:04:51] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That is really interesting, and maybe later, it'll be interesting to know about your bad architecture examples as well.

How did you get involved with Architecture Unknown? And what does it do?

[00:05:04] Charlie Butterwick: Myself and my business partner, Daniel Kelso, we founded Architecture Unknown in 2016. As I alluded to a moment ago, the way that we work is a little bit different to how some other architect’s work.

So our aim has always been to use architecture to empower people fundamentally. And that's been an interest of mine and Dan's for quite some time. But it was only through our meeting at university and through the encouragement of tutors Helen Aston and Stefan White in Manchester School of Architecture, who at the time ran a joint unit which was called MSAP, and now runs units separately, and Architecture and Praxis, and they had a very interesting and fundamentally feminist based approach to architectural design.

And they really encouraged us to think about how architecture can be respectful to local communities and how the impact that architects can have can be of a positive nature all the time, rather than just the times when architect happens to get it right.

We founded Architecture Unknown to put into practice the teachings that we received and that we explored at university. Our passion is working with communities fundamentally and giving other people a voice to shape their spaces.

[00:06:27] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I like that very much about shaping the spaces and the people that are going to use the spaces really shaping it, that would be quite a nice way to do it because it's not always the case. Sometimes it's the financiers who may have a say, so this is interesting.

Tell us about some of the community-led architecture you've been involved in, particularly in Greater Manchester, since this is Meet the Mancunian.

[00:06:52] Charlie Butterwick: So I have a couple of projects that I really want to focus on. The first one is a, which we completed last year. And it was a fantastic experience for us. So one of the things that we also do differently is that we try and extend the idea that communities can get involved and have a say and feel that sense of ownership of place into the construction phase, as well as the design phase.

So for the Scout Hut, during the design phase we talked to the young scouts. We talked to their parents. We talked to the leadership team. We developed the brief for that building collaboratively. And we really explored the site as a team as well. And that brings such a richness to the project as well, when you see the outcomes of activities like kids designing buildings using biscuits at the Scout group that evening and see those pictures on social media and see the joy and excitement that's reflected in them put into practice. We did some community engagement around the architectural approach to the Scout Hut.

But we also specialise in using a system which is called Wikihouse. And Wikihouse is a wonderful, modern method of construction. It's based in in the UK and constructed wholly out of plywood. So it's designed to do what IKEA did for bespoke joinery in that it makes buildings accessible for people who have no particular building skill, but have a lot of enthusiasm. And Wiki house goes together with just a mallet and screws, and it's the system we use to build the Scout Hut.

We used the scout's volunteer labour, their parents' labour to build significant portions of the building under their own steam. We enabled them to get involved in more than just the decorating or the painting. It was all about getting people's buy-in.

And we had so many stories from the contractor later down the line. The kids coming up to the gates oh, where did the bit that I made go into the building? How, is it, where is it? Show me. Obviously, it's a big building, so it wasn't always possible, but there was that sense of something that I made is in the world, in reality, and soon I'll get to actually use it. That was really lovely.

[00:09:04] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I was really fascinated by the concept of children assembling buildings using biscuits. It's like a version of Lego, but an easy accessible version. Was that something planned, or did it just happen organically?

[00:09:18] Charlie Butterwick: It was something that the Scout group put in motion to get that excitement really because architecture fundamentally is about excitement from our perspective, architecture is about getting people excited by the idea that they can have an impact on the way that they shape their spaces.

It's not some of those more technical parts of it. They're not hugely accessible and we wouldn't expect our clients or their communities to design the building for us. That's our particular skill set. We tend to try and get the engaged communities involved much earlier before we pick up a pen to design a building to really shape a brief and to shape an ambition for the aesthetic of the building.

Because we often find that the biggest reasons why buildings fail is because they're poorly considered, not in their building design, but in the way the projects are set up. There's nothing worse we say than a great building, answering the wrong question. So we've put a lot of effort in the briefing stage into defining what the right question is and what the right approach would be.

And then we slowly layer up a project so that it includes finances, it includes the technical details, it includes the contracts and the insurance and all the other things that go into making a building a reality.

But at the heart of it, it's still got that kernel of community-led design that defines how a building responds to its environment. And that's how we tend to bring it in. And that's the similar risk, how we approach the second project I wanted to mention, which is a community centre for young people who are not in work, education, or training. So young adults and a charity who help them take that leap from school into work or further education. And also try and intervene earlier in those young people's lives, running children's clubs to try and give them the skills to navigate that transition as they approach it at the end of school years.

It's a project based in Little Halton, which is quite a deprived part of Salford, in fact and is on the periphery of Salford. It's right on the border with Bolton, actually, so it's an area in need of extra appreciation, actually, because it is a wonderful place with wonderful people who live there and people who are really engaged with their communities and really wanting to help. So the project is effectively a new cafe in the park with some community rooms attached and space for the charity which is called Community Little Halton run by Alison Jones.

 But the community of Little Halton team are all invested in making the park, which is called Peel Park a really wonderful and safe space. And they've already installed a new pump track which is attracting people from across the sort BMXing outdoors, basically.

And a new games area, and they have plans for a forest school as well, alongside this new community centre. And they're really just trying to turn this slightly underutilised and under loved asset in this park into a place that will support young people's aspirations. And on top of that, we're also looking to use Wikihouse on that project as well.

The whole building process will be an exemplar of how to engage young people who. and give them experience in construction, in this instance, but fundamentally in the world of work, and help them make that jump into the next stage.

[00:12:39] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Sound like fascinating projects and I'd love to connect separately with Community Little Halton.

Absolutely.

What are the challenges that you've faced? Because obviously, community-based architecture is relatively new or maybe not as well known. Certainly, it was new for me to hear about it. What are the challenges you're facing and how are you overcoming them?

[00:13:02] Charlie Butterwick: I think the biggest challenge that we face is a general under appreciation for people's ability to make that change. So we often find that when we approach a community that there's a resistance to the fact that they are actually in charge, that we want to give them that power.

I think that a lot of people feel left down, let down and left out, and the idea that it might be different is almost too hopeful. So we often have to take it slowly and use the channels that are already carved and working through other charities to to really engage with an area where they are.

Because I think that a lot of development that happens is not community-led and therefore people feel like architecture is something that's done to them rather than that's done for them or with them. Even when you do see community engagement, we tend to think of that more as community consultation. That's more hi guys, we've designed this thing. What do you think of it? It's too late by that stage. The building's been designed, a significant amount of money has probably been spent on its development already.

So to take a community's views that may well be negative into consideration at that stage, even though it may be before planning, for example, is quite a tough ask. And it's not the sort of thing that most developers will look at. So even when you do see what people term community engagement, we would often say that you're way too late with it. It needed to be before you picked up the pen to do the design work. So that's a particular challenge.

There's a general resistance I think in planning departments and in funding bodies to look at a project that uses an alternative technology like wiki house for. That people would maybe think, how is that going to have quality and be quality controlled when it's built by people with no skill?

And the easy answer is that Wikihouse is like a jigsaw. It's like a big jigsaw puzzle in 3D. So jigsaws don't go together wrong. They always go together right eventually. And you don't need any particular skill to put a jigsaw together. But the person who designed the jigsaw did. And so that's where we come in. So we can help reduce the skill level by adding our input earlier before construction. So that's, insurance on that part. We haven't yet found a project that was where there was an issue with insurance, but it's something that we hear from the industry is something that we, we always look at carefully before we start.

I think contracting as well, working with builders, is always an, a difficult thing. So contractors I think if our job is to try and shape the way a project is conceived, a contractor is ultimately responsible for how it's executed and so we're always looking for fundamentally contractors that see their role as custodians of the built environment rather than as a route for them to make money.

That's not why we're doing our business. And we like to work with people who are also looking to, survive. But not extract resources. So there's always a better solution in terms of how a project is designed that, that doesn't include more houses. Often the more quality spaces have fewer houses, but for better nature.

And that is often at odds with the financing of a project, for example, in a domestic housing scenario. We're always looking for, to connect with people who have a similar appreciation for the built environment, who have similar values to us and who ultimately want to leave places better off in, in the truest sense, not in just lip service that you often do see, around design and the quality of design, the quality of building.

[00:16:37] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that and obviously anything which is new I can well imagine some of these challenges over a period will be well accepted.

What is the impact that you say that you would say you've made so far through the work you're doing and the projects that you've been able to contribute to Manchester?

[00:16:57] Charlie Butterwick: The Scout Hut, for example, the impact that we made on the individual children who built that building with us was huge. I would love to think that we've gone some way down the road to inspiring the next generation of architects and engineers to really take an interest in what the built environment can do for them.

It's something we would love to do more of. We'd love to do it every single time. We want to help communities become empowered. And I think that's how we can leave the best legacy for the practice that that we can. It's still a long road ahead of us. We're still quite a young company. And we would love to think that we'd be here in 50 years time, even still going, aged 85.

[00:17:35] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That would be really amazing.

[00:17:37] Charlie Butterwick: Architects never retire. There's still a lot of road in the front of us and a lot of people that we're really looking forward to meeting along that journey.

[00:17:45] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that. How can interested people reach out to you and learn more?

[00:17:50] Charlie Butterwick: My phone number is on our website, so please call me anytime. Even if it's just to discuss what the opportunities for a project that you're considering are, there's no limits on what we can do realistically. We just want to help people who need our particular expertise, but also value our approach to architecture.

Please feel free to follow us on social media. Our Instagram handle is architecture unknown. On Twitter, we're architecture unknown limited. And and our email address is info@architectureunknown.co.uk. Our website is www.architectureunknown.co.uk.

[00:18:25] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that and I'll make sure that it's linked up to our show notes so that people can find it easily.

What advice would you have for people looking to start a similar movement in their local community? We've got listeners now from over 50 countries and of course there are people across the UK who might get inspired as well. How do they get started with community-led architecture?

[00:18:48] Charlie Butterwick: It's a fascinating and challenging profession to enter, and I would recommend it to anyone. If you're interested in architectural design maybe you've taken an interest in design technology in the past, and you fundamentally want to leave the world in a better state than you're finding it. Then the place to start is maybe a university taking a course in architectural design, but not necessarily in the sense that a lot of great architects are not university educated.

And in fact, if you're able to get a job in practice as a young person, then that's a fantastic place to learn as well. And in fact, most of the learning that I've had about how to do my job. I've had in practice rather than at university, but the university accredited approach is the route to becoming an architect and the community side I feel flows naturally from being interested in other people and being engaged with what other people are thinking about your work.

If you have to be able to put yourselves in other people's shoes to work in architecture. But I think that a lot of the time architects only think about the people who they're working for, as the people that matter, whose viewpoints matter. So if you're interested in architecture in a more general perspective, as in the background to the lives that we live, and want to help everyone, not just the select few that are maybe able to pay for an architect's services. If you want to help everyone, understand and explore their abilities to shape space, then community-led design is absolutely something that should, they should explore.

[00:20:24] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing this and really good advice. And I hope more people get inspired because it's, it just sounds like something that's so helpful for the community.

An opportunity for you to now talk about anything I haven't asked you about, maybe something coming up over the next three months.

[00:20:43] Charlie Butterwick: We have just undertaken an extension using Wikihouse to my house actually. So it's just a residential extension. And we're in the process of exploring how to distribute the construction files for that as widely as possible. Wikihouse is open source and And we'd be really excited to speak to anyone who's interested in doing even something as small as an extension about using Wikihouse.

And we'll be promoting a lot of interesting information about the system and how it works. We filmed the entire process, so we have quite a lot of content that's going to be coming out on our social media channels very soon and on our website. So if anyone is interested in using Wikihouse unconventionally, Not just for community buildings or for public buildings, then we'd love to be in touch with them. Thank you.

[00:21:34] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That does sound really interesting. And then is it more sustainable or is it just that it's a faster process?

[00:21:42] Charlie Butterwick: It is more sustainable. Wiki House is very lightweight. It's made a hundred percent out of plywood, which is sustainably sourced. We're actually certified Passive House designers, which, for any listeners who aren't sure, Passive House is the gold standard for sustainable buildings and sustainable homes in particular.

So we have delved very deeply into that side of things to try and apply those lessons to using Wikihouse. And yeah, so Wikihouse is carbon negative on its own from day one. It's generally quite a built-up system. It's got quite a lot of void space in it, which we fill with insulation. So it's highly efficient when used properly and can easily get down to very low levels of heat loss through the fabric, which is fundamentally how Passive House achieves most of the results that it does. So yeah, it is much more sustainable. Thin brick and block, certainly.

[00:22:36] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That's really interesting. Definitely interested to learn more. I'll be looking out for those videos and the information that you put up.

I now come to my signature questions that I ask all my guests. And the first is to describe the Mancunian spirit in a word or a phrase.

[00:22:54] Charlie Butterwick: I would say Mancunians are plucky. They're never willing to be told no.

[00:23:01] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I like that very much. And it's very unusual as well. People have given the similar thought, but in very different language. So this is really interesting. Thank you.

[00:23:11] Charlie Butterwick: I mean from an outside perspective; I feel very grateful to be have been so welcomed here I'm from the south coast and as you may maybe could tell so it's Manchester's become my second home and I've never been more welcomed really in a city. There's a lot of things that I would love to help with in this city.

But also there's so much that's right about it. It's a fantastic place to work. It's a fantastic place to live. And the people here are always working hard for each other. And I think that is what makes me think, what makes Manchester special. People are always really willing to give of themselves to others.

[00:23:52] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Definitely agree with that.

Can you share a Mancunian who inspires you and why? Somebody from the past, present, and can be even a close member of the family does not need to be famous.

[00:24:03] Charlie Butterwick: So the tutor that out of my two tutors who I was taught by at university Helen Aston is probably I'm not sure she's from Manchester, but she's certainly from the Northwest. And we're going to say that she's close enough, but she was a really strong influence on how I understood what architecture could do.

And it was always, it was very surprising at the time to find someone who could answer the questions that I had about how to make architecture more responsive to people. There are lots of different ways of approaching architecture and the ones that I'd experienced previously were all about how we can design better, how we can be more technically proficient but never about how we can make places better for the people that live there and to find someone who was so far down that road and continues to blaze the way was I found very inspirational and still do.

[00:24:55] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you. And she does sound like she is a honorary Mancunian because she's teaching here, because people who work here, people who live here, people who have moved here, we consider all of them as Mancunians.

What's the most important life lesson you've learned?

[00:25:11] Charlie Butterwick: I think for me go far, go together. You have to be part of a team to, who support you to get anywhere. I don't necessarily believe in those lone wolves that say they've made it. There's always a team behind them that they don't acknowledge. But I would always prefer to be part of a collective. Making strides as a unit rather than someone on my own.

And that's why we call the company Architecture Unknown. We're looking at making architecture for those people who are unknown and taking everyone, whether their name's on the door or whether they're paying the bills or whether they're just someone who uses that building, together to make a better place.

[00:25:52] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: It's a really good thought and you're absolutely right, teamwork and the power of community. Can't agree more.

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

[00:26:03] Charlie Butterwick: I often describe our profession as being professional crystal ball replacements. So if I had to say it would be some sort of future predicting, but without it becoming overwhelming. Because our clients are always asking, how much is this going to cost? How much? How much can I afford to spend?

How big, do you think it needs to be? What will it feel like when it's ready? So our job fundamentally is trying to predict the future and show people what the future looks like. So it'd be great to be able to say with some certainty some of the answers to those questions. If I could say to my clients, you're definitely going to love this.  That would be great

[00:26:41] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That does sound like a great superpower to have. Very handy, isn't it?

Is there a funny story you'd like to share with listeners to end the podcast purely optional Or even a heart-warming story.

[00:26:52] Charlie Butterwick: It always gets a good chuckle when I explain how Dan and I met, but it's normally a double act when he's there too to explain it. He's Irish as well, so I can't really do his accent. And I wouldn't want to insult any overseas listeners who are from Ireland. It would not be a good plan.

I met Dan on the first day at university not knowing anyone in Manchester. And he says he picked me out of the crowd because I was the one of the tallest people and also looked the most lost. What he didn't know is I didn't have anywhere to sleep at that evening. So I was on the cusp of booking a hotel and he offered me his sofa. So I stayed in his shared house when we first started university and I think, it's our partnership has grown from that really. He's always been the first and maybe to make the first move, but we always finish things together.

[00:27:44] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: That is lovely. And it's great that you met on your first day, shared a home for a short period of time. That's really nice.

Thank you so much, Charlie. This has been a real pleasure and thank you so much for educating me on what community-led architecture is and the potential is immense.

[00:28:02] Charlie Butterwick: Absolutely. It may be, I feel like I've maybe been able to give some definition to it, but I think everyone understands architecture instinctively because everyone lives somewhere, generally speaking. Obviously there are people who are homeless and they understand the streets that they live in much better than anyone else, but we're all Inherently assessing and understanding our space. So it's more a case I find of just getting people to tell you what they're looking for, but it's not a case of education in my opinion.

[00:28:31] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: It's like I said deep listening skills involved and, it's very interesting. Thank you so much.

Outro

Charlie, I really enjoyed learning about supporting community-led architecture.

Dear listener, thank you so much for listening to the 10th episode of the Meet the Mancunian Podcast Season 6. Tune in every Tuesday for a new episode or log on to www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to listen to all the episodes and learn more about my podcasting story.

Next week on Tuesday, 14th November, 2023, I speak to Ruth Rosselson about supporting women with menopause.

Thank you for joining me on this enriching journey through the social impact stories of Manchester with the sixth season of the Meet the Mancunian podcast. I hope the stories you heard today have sparked a fire of inspiration within you. May they serve as a gentle reminder that no dream is too big and no passion too small.

Your feedback means the world to me. Visit www.meetthemancunian.co.uk to share your thoughts, suggestions and the causes that touched your heart. Your input helps me craft a podcast that truly touches hearts and makes a difference in our community.

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Your support fuels my passion, and I can't wait to bring you more compelling stories that will touch your heart and fuel your soul. Until we meet again in the next episode, let's keep creating waves of change together. Remember, the world needs the Mancunian spirit. So go out there and be the change you wish to see.

Take care. Stay inspired.