Supporting the Irish community with Francis Duncan

11.2 Francis Duncan Episode Transcript

Intro

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Season 11 of the Meet the Mancunian: social impact stories from Manchester. I'm your host, Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe, and I'm so glad you're listening to my podcast today.

[00:00:12] This season, I'm proud to collaborate once more with the Spirit of Manchester Awards to highlight some of this year's incredible nominees. These are personal stories of care, courage and commitment told in the voices of the people, working quietly and passionately behind the scenes in our communities.

[00:00:32] Every Tuesday, I'll bring new, thoughtful conversations that explore what drives these change makers, the impact they've made and the lessons they've learned along the way. I hope you find their stories as moving and meaningful as I did.

[00:00:48] You can listen to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or my website www.meetthemancunian.co.uk. Let's discover the heart of Manchester, one story at a time.

Episode 11.2 Introducing Francis Duncan

[00:01:02] Passionate about supporting the Irish community? In the second episode of Season 11, we hear from Francis Duncan, Community Engagement Manager, Irish Community Care, and a nominee for tackling inequalities.

[00:01:18] In Francis' own words.

[00:01:20] Francis Duncan: A lot of misconceptions about Irish travellers revolve around council tax. They pay council tax, they pay pitch fees, they pay service fees. All of it is they pay into the community just like anyone else does. There are misconceptions about various cleanliness issues, which to be honest, even if it was true, is nobody's business. but I will say that I've never been into a caravan that is not cleaner than my house.

[00:01:51] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thanks, Francis. It's great to have you here.

[00:01:53] Francis Duncan: Thank you very much. It's nice to be here, Deepa

Francis' Journey and Role

[00:01:56] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Tell us about what first inspired your connection to the Manchester community. Is there a particular moment that started you on this path?

[00:02:04] Francis Duncan: I've always been passionate about community work and that's reflected in my work history. I've lived all over the country. I've lived in Paris. I've lived in Canterbury and Aberdeen.

Understanding Culturally Appropriate Communities

[00:02:14] Francis Duncan: And one thing that I noticed is the importance of having a community around you and the importance of a culturally appropriate community. And I think particularly living in Canterbury of all places, there was a huge cultural disconnect between myself from the north. And there was a lot of differences that I'd noticed. I think that made me quite passionate about the work that community can do particularly culturally appropriate community.

[00:02:42] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Could you talk to us about that term, because I'm sure everyone interprets it slightly differently. What do we mean by a culturally appropriate community?

[00:02:50] Francis Duncan: I think, and I will talk in the Irish realm because that's my work. But I think for a lot of people they came across here in the fifties and the sixties; by the eighties, they were an elderly population. And what you often find is people yearn for home or yearn for a connection that is deeper than perhaps what a service that just provides for a general population can provide.

[00:03:17] There's a lot of cultural touchstones, particularly around food, around music, around dancing that we take for granted in the wider population. I think those cultural touchstones are really important. When I talk about culture and community, what I'm talking about is that specific cultural touchstone of having someone that isn't going to judge you or not know about a specific food or a specific dance or music that connects you with home.

[00:03:49] And I think home is a nebulous concept because a lot of people and a lot of immigrant communities, they make a home here. But they have home. And they have home. And I think that is true of a lot of immigrant communities across the country. Not just the Irish and Irish travellers, which I'll get onto in a minute.

[00:04:07] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: This is really interesting because I can totally relate. Home for me is still Mumbai, where I lived for 30 years, although I've since lived in Saudi Arabia and the UK now for five years. I try to consider it as my home right now, but I do understand what you're saying. There are certain foods or a cultural moment, which you can probably only connect to somebody who's been there, so I do understand.

Irish Community Care's Mission

[00:04:32] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Tell us more about how your journey with the Irish Community Care began and what does the organisation do?

[00:04:39] Francis Duncan: I began Irish Community Care with Rachel, who is our advocacy and advice manager currently. She started as a team leader and I was one of the fledgling advocacy and support officers. Rachel is a social care expert, and I'm going to excuse myself now. You'll hear a lot about Rachel.

[00:04:56] She's a really strong part of our story at Irish Community Care, as is Martin and Patrick. We started off and Rachel set up this advocacy and support service. So that was a 12-week programme for multiple and complex needs. That's an outreach project going out and working one-on-one with people who might be homeless or addicted to various substances. Or suffering from dementia or at the start of a journey. And what it means multiple and complex is what it says on the tin. So maybe they're homeless, but they also have addiction problems. So, we would go in and support independence.

[00:05:36] And that was the start of my journey at Irish Community Care. And where the work we do with the Irish travelling community came to light, because Irish Community Care to give you a very brief potted history, was set up in the eighties to deal with an aging Irish population who mainly moved across in the fifties and sixties.

[00:05:54] Irish Community Care today in Manchester has a wide range of projects that supports and reflects the Irish and Irish travelling communities. So we have two sort of arms. We have the social care arm and the community arm. So Rachel looks after the social care side of things now, and I'm now community engagement manager. And I look after the community and cultural projects.

Challenges Faced by the Irish Travelling Community

[00:06:17] Francis Duncan: We have a load of different things we do. But what we found was there was a lot of misunderstanding, particularly with professionals, around the Irish travelling community and how they're separate from the settled community and the prejudices they faced. So both have a rocky history in this country. The Irish population as a whole, has faced a lot of discrimination, particularly around work. Obviously, there's the famous sign, no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.

[00:06:50] However what we have found is that perhaps some of our community members in most need are from the Irish travelling community which is a very separate community. Has a very separate set of needs and cultural identity.

[00:07:04] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I can see so much resonance with a darker period in Indian history. When it wasn't independent was exactly a similar sign. I don't think it was about blacks. I think it was just no Indians allowed even in hotels built by Indians. So I can understand feeling very disenfranchised in a country that you're trying to make your own.

[00:07:25] But just before we talk more about the Irish Community Care, what is being nominated for the Spirit of Manchester Awards, especially in the category of tackling inequalities, what does that mean for you and your organisation?

[00:07:38] Francis Duncan: Honestly, I'm incredibly honoured. I mentioned before about it being a privilege to work with these communities. And I'm very lucky to have the job that I do and meet people face to face and support them. I feel privileged to be able to do what we do. This work particularly has been a passion project.

[00:07:55] And myself and Rachel, we lead together on the work with the Irish travelling community. and we found there was so much misinformation. So it's really nice to be recognised that, we are making a difference for that community. It's a very impoverished community. It's a very much a community in need and a very misunderstood community.

[00:08:19] But to be nominated for this particularly, it's a source of great pride for myself and Rachel. To use a colloquial term, we're buzzing about it. It's so good. I'm incredibly honoured

[00:08:28] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Like you said, all very important aspects of helping a community not feeling empowered.

[00:08:35] So talk about some of the toughest moments in this journey and how have you got through them? Because I would imagine it's not been easy. If there's misunderstandings, that can be challenging.

[00:08:47] Francis Duncan: I think to understand some of the toughest times; you have to understand some of the history of the Irish travelling community. Not just in this country, but in Ireland as well. And I think when we look particularly at the travelling community. We need to understand that they travel between Ireland and the UK. They have one foot in both countries. They quite often usually in summer and at Christmas, they will go back. And they are nomadic people.

[00:09:13] So when you look at the history of institutional abuse, we talk about Ireland quite a lot and the history of institutional abuse, which some of your listeners may know about the mother and baby homes, which did unfairly target Irish travelling community specifically, as well as unmarried mothers and various other miscarriages of justice.

[00:09:35] There is a history of mistrust of particularly institutional services within the Irish travelling community. And although it's not the services today, it is the services of yesteryear that did commit these. And I think we talk about Ireland a lot. And I think the abuses of the church and the abuses of the state and Ireland are reasonably well known at this point. I think what often goes unnoticed or untalked about, is that Ireland is not alone in this, but they were the first country to uncover them.

[00:10:10] We're now seeing that very similar things happened in the north of England, where babies were taken away from their mothers, where people were put into social services without any cause. While there is a long-documented history in Ireland of this behaviour, again, I would say rather than it being the only case, it's a case that's well documented. And the same miscarriages of justice and the same discrimination took place within the Irish travelling community in this country as well.

Overcoming Mistrust and Bias

[00:10:40] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: So Francis, when you talk about this history, you said that's caused mistrust today. How do you overcome that mistrust?

[00:10:49] Francis Duncan: It's a really good question and it's one that we try to tackle ourselves. Part of the reason we have been nominated is our work advocating for the community because we do training on cultural awareness and working with the Irish travelling community. Can you overcome this mistrust is a big question, and I think as individuals perhaps, I think there will always be a sense of mistrust against the institutions.

[00:11:15] So we've delivered this training to social services, local councils, Great Manchester Police. Now mistrust goes deep and like I say, it's maybe not the work or what people have done today, but there are certainly things that happen today that increase it.

[00:11:33] But what you have to remember is you are building up on years of experience and there's a culture of passing this mistrust down because of various cultural factors. It is a big step and there are various things you can do, which we actually got the training about how do you work.

[00:11:53] A lot of these aren't specific to the Irish travelling community, but I think it's worth noting that 44% of the population have negative feelings towards the Irish travelling community. It's an uphill battle. They're often labelled with various unfortunate terms. They're often called thieves, they're called dirty, they're called beggars from a very young age. But all of this adds to the mistrust that has already existed. So, it only takes one bad experience with one person and you are reinforcing that negative experience.

[00:12:29] Again, we know that through sociology, if you are disadvantaged, you are more likely to go down a criminal route. To do things that maybe our society does not deem appropriate. But again, that's reinforcing the roles that they've already been told they're playing.

[00:12:45] The traditional roles of work they were in, they've gone. I think explaining this to people and explaining the history. For instance, the social services might not understand why there's so much mistrust. And although I said it's pretty well known, the abuse in Ireland, I think for some people, it won't be, and they don't connect that to the people of today, which I completely understand.

[00:13:11] And like I say, this institutional abuse not unique to Ireland. I'm sure there's various things in a lot of old colonial countries that are very similar. And it's a very similar story where in the power vacuum, other people have stepped in the church or various situations has created this atmosphere.

[00:13:29] And it's not a story unique to the Irish travelling community, but it's the last bastion of racism. It's very often not called out in meetings and not understood that it is racism. And it's something that I feel really strongly about. Because I've sat in meetings and, one of them was a housing meeting and they said they did not want an Irish travellers live on the street. Because other Irish travellers would come and live on that street as well.

[00:13:55] And I said, could you please replace that with a different ethnic minority? And they wouldn't. Because it would be racist. And, there is a lot of misunderstanding and a lot of not understanding that they are an ethnic minority. The way they live is cultural and it's important to uphold and they have a right to live like that.

[00:14:14] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: It's great that you're also trying to educate the institutions and the wider sector, because I guess some of these misunderstandings also come from lack of awareness and not making the connections or not thinking about it deeply enough.

[00:14:32] And I do agree. We do need to call out anything which differentiates or discriminates against any community, regardless of what that community is. It could be ethnicity, but it could be any other kind of community as well.

[00:14:48] So can you share a little bit about the impact of your work?

Impact and Future Goals

[00:14:51] Francis Duncan: I'll focus on the Irish travelling community because that's very specific to the work we do. But I think one of the most fantastic things that we have seen is a lot of professionals accept and realise that they did have unconscious bias, and they didn't know about a community. Duties of local authorities quite often are misunderstood. It's a very murky area of the law. And I think we've had a lot of people say that they just didn't understand that they were an ethnic minority. It's as simple as that. They didn't understand that there were cultural differences.

[00:15:30] But what we found is we're very lucky to live in a very diverse city. Particularly with the social services, we found more similarities between different cultures. If you look at multi-generational living wouldn't be that common in a white British culture. However, in Irish travelling culture, you'll often see multi-generational families, that's very similar to other ethnicities but you might not put two and two together.

[00:15:58] So actually explaining, there are more similarities between cultures than there are differences is a really important thing to do. And to show that, they're not some alien species that are completely different to everyone else, they are people.

[00:16:14] Now ideally we would have Irish travellers presenting this training. At the moment. because of who we work with as a charity the communities we work with perhaps have higher support needs. That at the moment, they're not comfortable in doing so. But that is a long term goal of ours, that we want an Irish traveller.

[00:16:33] We do present our training to Irish travellers to make sure they're understanding what we're saying. Neither myself or Rachel are Irish travellers. We're not speaking on behalf of, we're advocating for. So I think the work we do is really important and I think it's really nice to see an understanding at the end.

[00:16:56] Everyone's just a person. At the end of the day, you cannot tar a whole community because you have had a bad experience with one person and you wouldn't think of doing it for any other community.

[00:17:08] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I do agree. My philosophy is that we have more in common that we actually can connect on. It could be, like you said, multi-generational living or food, or just curiosity about each other rather than the things that keep us apart. So you're absolutely right. That is quite an interesting way to integrate by showing how much different communities have in common and that strengthens the fabric of Manchester, even the UK.

Addressing misconceptions about Irish travellers

[00:17:40] You talked a little bit about myths that you see all the time, and are there other common myths you might want to myth bust on this. You said there's a cultural baggage because of what they've experienced in Ireland or in the UK, but then you also talked about how they sometimes stereotyped and perceived to be, not of a working profession.

[00:18:04] Francis Duncan: There are tons of myths. The discrimination runs incredibly deep and it runs throughout our media. Again, through our institutions.

[00:18:13] If you ever see any headline about Irish travellers, they're quite often referred to as gypsies. Now Roma, Romani Gypsies, and Irish travellers are all different. So Romani gypsies are different from the Roma who would not appreciate you calling them the term gypsy. travellers are a distinct ethnic minority group in themselves.

[00:18:35] So I think that's one of the first misconceptions is that there are huge cultural differences between the Roma, Romani Gypsies and Irish travellers. They are referred to in a number of different ways. And the myths and misconceptions about them run deep.

[00:18:54] The first piece of anti-traveller legislation was referred to as the Egyptians Act and talks about them going from village to village, through sleight of hand causing chaos basically. The mess we saw, 500, 600 years ago. They're the same ones today on social media. again, this is fuelled by mainly media outlets that will print whatever they deem fit about Irish travellers. You very rarely see a positive piece of information. Obviously, a lot of people have their own preconceptions about Irish travellers and their community may have had negative experiences and decide that is all Irish travellers. Again, we don't tar everyone with the same brush. It's not a right thing to do.

[00:19:48] A lot of misconceptions about Irish travellers revolve around council tax. They pay council tax, they pay pitch fees, they pay service fees. All of it is they pay into the community just like anyone else does. There's misconceptions about various cleanliness issues, which to be honest, even if it was true, is nobody's business. but I will say that I've never been into a caravan that is not cleaner than my house. They are always spotless, but there is a lot of misconceptions about the community.

[00:20:23] Not working is a big one. There is a persistent thing about them being linked to unlawful behaviour there is no crime statistics that are recorded specifically on Irish travelling community. We know because they are a deprived community that is likely to be higher than standard. However, the statistics aren't there. We can't prove that either way.

[00:20:50] There's misconceptions about local authorities and their responsibilities, and there's various law changes that have happened about what responsibilities local authorities have to provide culturally appropriate accommodation and whether or not authorities do provide culturally appropriate accommodation. This can lead to further conflict between the settled community and the travelling community because those culturally appropriate sites do not exist quite often. They may pull in where it would be deemed not appropriate. There are steps that can be taken.

[00:21:27] There's something called negotiated stopping, which is identifying a suitable piece of land to move travellers onto and providing them with toilet facilities. This is a perfectly legal option and quite often isn't used by local authorities, even though it would reduce in the long-term conflict between two communities.

[00:21:48] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I must say this is my first podcast about the Irish community and I'm learning a lot, and I'm sure for listeners as well. This is important information and absolutely not acceptable that any community feels differentiated or disadvantaged. So thank you for sharing that.

Advice for Supporting Communities

[00:22:06] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I'm going to move us on to a go-to piece of advice you would like listeners to think about if they want to support their community, whether it be the Irish community or any community that feels it needs support, how should they get started?

[00:22:20] Francis Duncan: I'm going to refer to a bit of advice that Rachel gave me. And it's a great theory and it is unconditional positive regard. But unconditional positive regard means that you go in without judgment. So whatever someone has done, it doesn't matter to you in that moment.

[00:22:39] That is not saying we condone behaviours, but we don't condemn them either. In that space, you give them complete empathy, and you give them a space where they are not judged for past behaviour. I think of everything that I have learned working in community, that is the most important thing.

[00:23:01] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I love it very much. It sounds really powerful and like you said, for the person who's perhaps feeling isolated and alone, that a patient listening ear almost feels like it could be quite transforming.

[00:23:16] Francis Duncan: I think you're looking at someone if they're asking for support, and obviously I'm in a different role now, but if you look at what any community worker does, you are providing someone a space where they feel safe and comfortable.

[00:23:33] And actually in that moment, whoever they are, it in some ways doesn't matter because they feel heard to try and make a difference themselves or they're wanting to get support. I think it's really important to remember that and it's a really powerful tool and it really helps you check yourself as well. Because we do all have unconscious bias and we do all have judgements we make every day. And actually, giving that space to say, it doesn't matter. Let them be who they are. They need support. A real powerful thing.

[00:24:07] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you for sharing that.

Upcoming Events and Community Engagement

[00:24:10] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you might want to share with listeners?

[00:24:14] Francis Duncan: We have loads of events, not just for the Irish and Irish travelling community. I probably should have mentioned in misconceptions, the Irish, Irish travelling community. They're two communities, so they're very different.

[00:24:26] I'm going to shift hats again now Deepa into my Community Engagement manager hat now. We have loads of different activities and events all throughout the year. We have social lunch groups for the over 55s. We have a book club, a history club, an LGBTQ+ group, a young men's group, a women's group. Worth having a look at our website, Irish Community Care.com or our social media to have a look at what we do.

[00:24:52] And 33% of the population of Manchester is either Irish or Irish descent so that's a huge number. That's one in three people. That will include the Irish travellers. But there's a huge number of Irish people in Manchester. We don't just work with the Irish travelling community. We work with all Irish people and people of Irish descent.

[00:25:12] If your grandmother's Irish and you would like to connect to that heritage, have a look at what we do. And we're all really friendly. You do not have to be Irish to take part in our event or ask for advice. We will never turn anyone away. We are open to sharing our community and culture with everyone.

[00:25:30] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: It sounds really interesting and we'll come to sharing your website and socials in a little bit. But absolutely, shout out to anyone who's interested and it sounds like something I'd definitely want to check out myself.

Signature Questions: Community Spirit and Hall of Fame

[00:25:43] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: So I'm going to move us now to the signature questions I ask all my guests.

[00:25:48] If Manchester's community spirit could be bottled up, what would you say is its secret ingredient?

[00:25:54] Francis Duncan: So I'm going to go to the Irish answer here, and I'm going to say the Craic. Do you know what the craic is Deepa. No.

[00:26:01] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: No.

[00:26:01] Francis Duncan: A bit of craic. Craic basically means fun. It means banter, it means enjoying yourself. So you go out for a bit of craic and I think Manchester has a great craic. And I think, it's really important to remember what we do is we're wanting people to enjoy themselves as well.

[00:26:18] And I think that's a huge bit. I think you'd be sorry to say that in any event, any community event, you wouldn't find laughter., High spirits, and a good bit of craic. So I think that would be the secret ingredient.

[00:26:33] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Just learned something new.

[00:26:34] If you could build a Manchester Community Hall of Fame, who's the first person you'd induct into that Community Hall of Fame and what would their plaque say?

[00:26:44] Francis Duncan: We've got a volunteer called Peggy Connarty, and she actually won the Dr. Sylvia Sham Award a couple of years ago. And I nominated her. Peggy is an incredible woman. She's 87. she's still volunteering with us. She's volunteered with us now for 37 years. She was a nurse before that, a community nurse before that. She's done the district. She's worked with the Jewish community.

[00:27:10] She's a hell of a woman. She is a little pocket rocket, and I cannot think of anyone more deserving. A formidable character and she scares me to death, but think she's all the better for it. And I hope when I'm 87, I am that active. I think for the plaque, Peggy Connarty pocket rocket would be a fine plaque for her.

[00:27:35] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: She sounds amazing. And you're so right. I've got these amazing 96-year-old and 102 year old neighbours, and they're just so inspiring. And every day you're like. I hope that's me in 40 or 50 years.

[00:27:48] What's a Made in Manchester moment you won't forget something that could have only happened here?

[00:27:54] Francis Duncan: I think there is something very special about, the Irish community in Manchester. I'm going to say our lunch groups are incredible. So, they're 55 it's incredible to see people come out. We have about 300 people over a week come into them. And so, we have three a week.

[00:28:16] They are something else. And to explain it is really difficult because it's a crystallised Ireland that perhaps doesn't exist anymore. but it's what they remember of Ireland and their culture. But for them, they have created something and it's all volunteer led.

[00:28:33] So we have staff support there. We have the fantastic Catherine there to give staff support, but it's the volunteers that run it and make it what it is. And it's just incredible the atmosphere. I think people are often overwhelmed upon going into them, because they assume an over fifties vibes group would be quite quiet. But the music, the dancing, we have bingo, we have raffle. There's no noise during the bingo, but it's an incredible thing to behold. And just the energy and the atmosphere. People are always overwhelmed is the word when they go in because it's just like nothing to be honest I've ever seen. It is something else.

[00:29:18] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: It definitely sounds special.

[00:29:21] What's the most valuable lesson that your work or life has taught you?

[00:29:26] Francis Duncan: What I will say is keeping an open mind to people. Because people will always surprise you, often positively. What I've learned that people are incredible. It doesn't matter what situation they're in, they're always incredible. I've done one-on-one work. I've done work in big groups. They are all so passionate. You can find just some amazing people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. And I've worked in universities, I've worked in community organisations, I've worked here, I don't think I've ever failed to be surprised by people.

[00:30:04] Because you just can't expect what they're going to say or do next. And sometimes it's hilarious. Sometimes it's worrying sometimes. It's just incredible. You just don't know. They'll go the extra mile, they'll go the extra millimetre. You don't know what people are going to do.

[00:30:19] And I think learning not to be surprised by people is a big thing. Because just have to take them as they come. And I think particularly when you work with volunteers as well, you don't know who you're going to get and service users as a whole, you don't know who's coming in that door. And they each have own story, their own history. That they are just great. It's amazing.

[00:30:39] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: I guess it's two tips you've just given us. So one is keeping an open mind, but also not being surprised by what people will do because there is pleasant and difference in that experience. I think that's a great life lesson to take away.

Final Thoughts and Contact Information

[00:30:55] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: What's the best way for people to connect with you and learn more about your work?

[00:31:00] Francis Duncan: So we have social media so Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter. We have all of them. We have a website, Irish Community Care.com. Have a look at it, see what you want, if you want to come and volunteer for us. We're always asking for more volunteers.

[00:31:15] Deepa Thomas-Sutcliffe: Thank you so much, Francis. It's been a real pleasure and thank you so much for sharing so many myths. I've learned a lot over this call and thank you for sharing that with the listener community.

[00:31:27] Francis Duncan: Thank you very much.

Outro

[00:31:29] Thank you for listening to the Meet the Mancunian podcast. I hope today's episode gave you a deeper appreciation of the powerful work happening right here in Manchester. It's been a real honour for me to feature the Spirit of Manchester Award nominees and share their stories with you.

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[00:31:59] I'd love to hear from you. Visit www.meetthemancunian or connect with me on social media @MeettheMancunian on Instagram, Facebook, and Blue Sky, and @MeettheMancunianPodcast on YouTube.

[00:32:14] Until next time, keep championing kindness, connection, and community. Together, we can make our world just a little bit brighter. Thank you.